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[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

A beginners inquiry on starting astronomy in Chicago

Fellow Chicago Astronomers...

I received a very nice note from a gentleman I met at a party last year. He is just starting out in astronomy and got a very nice scope.

Hi Joe!

I was out looking at the stars this evening. I'm still very much a novice...just learning to use the scope. I bought a 10 inch dobsonian with the star finder (though I haven't had much luck getting that to work). I did have luck finding Saturn, Mars, and the M51 galaxy though!

Just out of curiousity, should I expect to be able to see the spiral in M51 with a 10 inch dob in Chicago? I was only able to see the two bright stars next to each other - I could not make out any definition. I was observing using a 10mm Sirius Plossl eyepiece.

I'm also curious if you have any must have reccomendations. One thing I'm considering is shelling out some dough for eyepieces....I really want to get an eyepiece in the 4-8mm range so that I can make out more definition in planets. I'm willing to spend a few hundred dollars if the money really makes a big difference in quality. I've read that barlows are good for beginners but more advanced observers prefer a really good eyepiece to using a barlow (thus I'm reluctant to buy a barlow).

Very Grateful,
Dave

Dave...

Congratulations on joining the ranks of citizen astronomers, prying the secrets from the cosmos.

A Ten inch Dobsonian is a fine instrument, not only excelling in Deep Space Objects, but for general observations as well. The light gathering aperture of the 10" mirror will allow you to funnel dim photons traveling over hundreds of light years right into your retina and marvel at the sights.


First, on the Star Finder -

First, using a 10mm eyepiece in the scope, center a terrestrial object in the scope and don't move it...... Be it an antenna on a building, smokestack or whatever...you want the object not to be moving, so as to accurately match the cross hairs on the finder to the center of the eyepiece on the main scope or Optical Tube Assembly (OTA). If you try doing this on a star, the rotation of the Earth at 1000 MPH, will soon move the star..and frustration sets in and you have to start all over. Now, with the target centered in the eyepiece - use the small adjustment screws on the finder. Move them slowly one at a time, until the target is smack in the middle of the crosshairs of the finder. Check if the target remains in the center of the eyepiece often as you are doing this.

In time, you will be able to align using stars quickly, but not recommended to start with. This procedure will need to be done frequently before your observation sessions.

Also in regards to star finders....

A Zero-Mag Star Finder is good too have. I have them on all my scopes - and the tool places a red circle reticle on a plastic screen projected onto the sky to help you locate objects easier & faster. I use the "Rigel Star Finders"...

There are others as well, and I use this one too - on my smaller C5 SCT...

There is also the Telrad, but I find those too big & clunky.



Viewing -

The planets will offer great views in your 10" dob. Saturn, being the most spectacular - with her ring system nearly edge on now, it's still a great sight.

My image of Saturn taken through my 5"SCT

Mars is rather anticlimatic, and as it's speeding away from us now, it's disk is getting smaller each night.

Taken thru my C11 SCT

Jupiter, (now visible in the east before sunrise), will show you great bands and four of it's brightest satellites in a row.

But....

High magnification is not usually the name of the game.

Astronomers stick to low magnifications most of the time, (40mm to 17mm to maybe a 10mm). A few factors come into play here:

1- Sky conditions -

Rare is the perfect, deep and clear night for observing. The blanket of air above our heads is usually turbulent, causing our targets to boil, wave and blur. using high magnification eyepieces just increase these awful views.

2- Field of View (F.O.V.) -

As you increase the magnification, you are also decreasing the FOV of the telescope. Sometimes, this makes the object hard to find and especially...hard to keep up with, if using a Non-motorized scope, as most dobs are.

3 - Dimming -

Also, as one increases the magnification of the selected eyepiece, it also dims the objects. Nothing is free - and indeed you can magnify greatly an object, but it will dramatically lose it's brightness.

When sky conditions are near perfect and we have a bright enough object, then we can kick up the magnification to bring out details on planets, split double stars cleanly and dive into lunar craters...

Taken through my 5" SCT

Enjoy these opportunities when you can.

Now, for galaxies....they prefer low magnifications - as they are relatively dim to view and large. A high magnification eyepiece is not recommended, but rather a low one, like a 25mm or so.

Using a technique called "Averted Vision", astronomers can observe the fainter parts of an object in the telescope, by looking to the side of the target in the eyepiece. This allows the photons to strike the more sensitive parts of the retina, thereby allowing more detail to be observed. It takes some time to train your brain to see this way, but once you do, it will open up a whole new way of seeing.

M51 is quite the cool galaxy...

Open faced to us, we can enjoy the spiral arms in this Hubble image. But at best, with our own modest scopes and eyes, we get mostly this...

And usually just a grey wisp of a target.

The Andromeda galaxy is similar and a ghostly oval patch to the eye.

This is my modest imaging of the Andromeda Galaxy

And the older we get, the less sensitive our eyes get. The two "Bright stars" you saw there Dave, were the cores of the galaxies...! Very cool...



Eyepieces -

Every astronomer should have at least three basic eyepieces...

a 25mm

a 17mm

and a 10mm

Now, you can get a 40mm eyepice, which will provide very low power, but a great large field of view. Excellent for star clusters, galaxies and slowly exploring the sky. I have one and it's one I use often - especially showing the public the Moon. And then you can go for higher powered eyepieces such as a 6mm, 4mm or even a 3.5mm. They have their place, (mostly limited to planetary & lunar observing), and are great with a scope your 10", but you will find that they will not be used as frequently as the others.


This brings us to the Barlows -

Barlows are a must have. A 2x Barlow will double your magnification on any eyepiece, without having to purchase more eyepieces. A 25mm will be a 12.5mm and a 10mm a five. Again, nothing is free, and you will be including another layer of glass between you and the object...which "steals" a little bit of the brightness and definition, through reflections, refractions...and a bunch of other "tions".

But, get one.

Plossl eyepieces are good. Not the best around, but they are affordable and take abuse. Naglers & TeleVues are among the best...but are quite expensive...and deservedly so. If you can get 2 inch eyepieces...even better. Much more preferred over the 1.25 eyepieces commonly used. They offer a very wide FOV and brighter image. The 2" eyepieces display a quite comfortable wide Field of view...and they are like looking thru a spaceship's porthole...

Comparing a 1.25" eyepiece on the left to 2" eyepieces on the right...you can see the dramatic difference in size.

We use 2" eyepieces at the Adler Planetarium and one of my Chicago Astronomer members has some that I use from time to time. They are great! Warning: Some of them are quite heavy and may throw your Dob off balance.

Get yourself a Star Atlas/map, a red bulb flashlight and your set.

There are always more toys to get and it really never ends, but I would be happy to assist you in offering my advice before you buy.

Also...look around this site, as there is a lot of content here on the many joys of urban astronomy including observation sessions, equipment and experiences.

And of course Dave, a warm welcome to join me and the Chicago Astronomer crew on our observation sessions. Post your astro adventures on this forum, as we would like to follow and assist.

And, let me know if you wish to be included in "The Chicago Astronomer" email notifications on upcoming events and activities. You can also follow the action on Twitter: www.twitter.com/astronomerjoe

Ain't astronomy fun?

[dweiland]

Thanks Joe. What a great response! If you don't mind, I have two followup questions.

How often do you see eyepieces on sale? Is generally a good idea to wait around for premium equipment to hit a discount price and then pick it up?

Also, are their any particular websites you recommend keeping an eye on for purchases?

Very Grateful!
Dave

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Dave,

We are asked all the time, where one could go close by for a brick & mortar shop to buy astro related items. At least here in the Chicagoland area...none exists.

It's all on-line.

I have a member who is an expert on catching on-line deals...which I had his skills.

I cannot endorse any particular website publicly, but, Ebay, (either auction or buying outright), is a good source. It's a hit & miss with "on sale" items and sometimes there are indeed good deals.

What I like to do is type in what is desired in Google and examine all hits hits I get back. All the major vendors of fine eyepieces and more will pop up. Some of the Chinese stuff is good too and affordable. I compare prices....and the low guy wins.

And also...

...it's a good idea to come out to star parties, (Chicago Astronomers or others), to see what different astronomers use. They will most certainly allow you to take a peek and explain the item. This way, you can get hands on experience with a desired item before buying.

Let me know what in particular you are looking for and post the items you are interested in. We will assist in building up your accessory case.

[Paulie pchris00]

Hi Dave. I just want to add a few things to Joe's recommendations. I've been watching the sky seriously now for just over two years, and I still consider myself quite the novice. My first advice is to slow down. It's great that you want to jump right in, but the term "amateur astronomer" covers a lot of ground. There are numerous objects out there to observe, so take your time, learn the sky, and figure out what you best like to observe.

Don't get discouraged that your sighting of M51 wasn't quite what you expected. I've only managed to find it once with my 6" Dob, despite having a slightly darker sky here in Valparaiso, Indiana. (I should probably point out though that I tend to stick to planets and the Moon. Deep sky objects aren't as high a priority for me). Astronomy is as much about the challenge of finding faint & distant targets as looking at them. When viewing anything, whether it's a dim galaxy or a lunar crater at high magnification, there are limiting factors to how much detail we can see, but to me, astronomy is best enjoyed trying to make out the most detail that conditions will allow. With time and experience, you will be seeing much more than you realize. I always see much more detail than non-astronomer guests who look through my telescopes.

Also, Joe pointed out using averted vision to make out dim objects. I recently read that most people have "sweet spots" where their averted vision is most effective. Try looking to one side, then the other. For most people the sweet spot is when you look inward (so if you are using your right eye, look slightly left). Give it a few tries, and pretty soon you'll find that you are using averted vision without giving it any thought.

I hope I've given you some good advice. Be sure to post what you've been up to here, because I get some good observation ideas from things I read from other amateurs. Clear skies!

[dweiland]

Thanks for providing perspective Paulie.

The smart thing to do is to pace myself and spend money wisely. However, I'd like to splurge just a little on a couple items.

1. I think I'm going to shop for a 2inch 2x Barlow. My thought is that a Barlow might make observing the planets more interesting and it buys me time as I evaluate more expensive eyepieces. I'll be keeping an eye out for star parties... (please keep me in the loop if you have any events on your radar!!!).

2. I really want to get some sort of a bag to handle all my eyepieces and lens covers as I move my dob around. My initial thought is a backpack type of bag would work best. I say this because hauling my telescope up the steps to the roof or wherever would be easier if I could just throw all the accessories on my back.

If you have any advice please share!

Appreciative,
Dave

[Paulie pchris00]

I got into this hobby without much money to put into it, but if you've got it, go for it. I'm in Northwest Indiana, and there isn't much going on out here. Valparaiso University hosts open houses at their campus observatory every other Friday during the semester, and the Calumet Astronomical Society has them once a month at their observatory in Lowell, Indiana. I'm a regular at VU, and I went to a couple of the CAS star parties, but something turned me off from their group. Don't really know what, but I haven't been there in nearly a year. I met Joe at the Adler last fall, and have drove out to the city afew times to observe with him and his friends. I think that says something, that I would rather hang out in good company in the light polluted city than at a relatively dark site (at the Lowell observatory). I don't know where you're from or where you're willing to travel to, but Joe might be able to help put you in touch with somebody in your area.

As for carrying accessories, I don't know what would be best. I have two scopes, and two eyepices for each, and that's it. My Dob has a little eyepiece holder on the side of it, and I just slide them in there with the covers on so they don't fall out. My other two I just carry in my coat pocket or hoodie pocket.

[dweiland]

The item that kind of makes me want a backpack type of case is my finder scope. I have been taking it off to transport the scope (I have a soft case for the dobsonian tube). The finder scope is just kind of big and bulky and has a couple of caps that I feel like I am probably going to lose if I don't have a spot designated for storage.

Give me a heads up if you make the trek down to Adler. I live in Lakeview - Chicago. I'm looking forward for an opportunity to meet up with Astro Joe and crew.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Dave...

A hard shelled case is good to keep your astro accessories in, such as this:

www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=39196

It's just insane to spend $50.00 + for a similar name brand case.

I have progressed through several cases over the years and find that I have outgrown all of them - needing more space. Most of my accessories now, reside in my old police briefcase...

I have outgrown this one too and looking at the example of a aluminum case shown above.

But the backpack for eyepieces and accessories is common among many astronomers and works quite well and this one for $100.00 is nice...

But one can up with something much cheaper with an everyday packback.

"I think I'm going to shop for a 2inch 2x Barlow."

Dave, you mention that you are interested in a 2" Barlow? Unless you have 2" eyepieces, I believe you require a 1.25 Barlow, reflecting the standard 1.25" eyepieces that come with consumer grade telescopic equipment.

I may conduct a mini observation session this week...perhaps Tuesday or Wednesday evening. Stay tuned!

----

Paulie,

" but something turned me off"

I have a thread about the "Dark side" of astronomy...

astronomer.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Soapbox&action=display&thread=972

I'm sure you have read it, but it certainly does reflect what how you feel about a certain element in citizen & institutional astronomy.

First, thank you for the kind words. I have watched you relate to to those who want to take a peek through your scopes and you have the enthusiasm and passion that shows - and that your guests appreciate.

But, how many times have we attended a star party with sour, anti-social amateur astronomers - who talk down to their guests, annoyed at the questions or attempt to impress by "techno" talk? (I had an overweight old school coot yell at me at a star party once....and another attempt to dazzle me with techno talk - shutting up after I corrected him... )

We feel alienated and not welcomed - maybe even turned off of astronomy because of it.

Get's old fast and I have no patience for it.

Fortunately, I like to surround myself with the best and every one of my Chicago Astronomer members & Adler Telescope Operators are eager to share our enthusiasm & telescopes with the public - engaging in astro talk...making the experience a pleasant one for everybody.

2010 shoud be a great year for The Chicago Astronomers!

[dweiland]

Hi Joe,

I am considering the 2 inch Televue Big Barlow or Powermate. Both have capability for 1.25 adapters. I'm going to post my research to the forum later this week! If you recommend another barlow type eyepiece to throw into the mix, let me know.

Grateful,
Dave

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Dave,

Either one would be a great addition and versatile.

Pleased do post what you find or decide one and let's take a look.

[Paulie pchris00]

Yeah, I've read that thread. It wasn't anything about the observing with them, I felt pretty welcome then. The last time I was out at the Conway Observatory in Lowell, it got cloudy early, so everybody packed up. Before leaving, I wanted to suggest to a couple of guys who seemed to have some influence that they should get a Facebook page, since I've made many contacts around the world in FB forums. As soon as I said "Facebook," the one guy copped an attitude. I told him it had been a great experience for me, and he made some remark about his students (must have been a high school teacher) spending too much class time on FB. Their website is terrible, and not really up to date, and since they were talking about upgrading the site, I figured I'd throw that suggestion out there. Nope. Shot down with no thought. Come on now, none of their members use the internet to find other amatuer astronomers? I don't know ANY astronomers within a twenty minute drive from me, but I have internet discussions with people I've never met and probably never will almost every day.

And, of course, I don't like that they schedule their public star parties late in the lunar phase. I'm sorry, but a first quarter Moon isn't going to drown out every showpiece deep sky object, plus it sets early, so if they wish to do some DSO observing after the crowds are gone, everybody is happy. Or they should be.

I know, I'm going off on this rant again, but in my opinion, a PUBLIC star party isn't the time to go through the entire NGC catalog. That's what private observing is for. Public viewing should be about showing off the easy targets, talking to people and having fun. And besides, the so-called easy targets are the most impressive. I like that you have a full Moon observation every month, not because a full Moon is such a great thing to observe, but just to hang out, let the curious people wandering by have a look, and maybe have them walk away with a broader perspective of our place in space & time. That's just me though. I don't take my astronomy at home too seriously (meaning if I find something, I find it, and if not, oh well; I don't usually curse the clouds), so why be that way in public? Show the best things you can, and go home with a smile. I'm done now.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Paulie,

You are correct.

DSOs - are not the stuff of public viewing.

Smudges and ghostly faint images do not whet the appetite of the average visitor. Even the Orion Nebula, while amazes us...is just a passing glance to most...much less The Andromeda Galaxy.

Any venue to promote citizen astronomy should be exploited - including Facebook, Myspace and Twitter. Old school thinking keeps the curmudgeon bitter and left to their own sour dispositions. Probably the same individuals I encountered early on who thought me daft when I proposed that Mars was not cold dry and dead...and water exists.

Funny...they are awfully quiet now.

Keep up the public outreach man, and share the heavens with all who want to see.