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[Paulie pchris00]

I was going to create an anonymous Youtube account to upload this video, then post here as an anonymous guest. Some of you would have known it was me either from my voice, or because we’ve talked about this before. In the first minute of this video, posting anonymously here becomes a moot point, since one of our members mentions my name, and does so again later. So, I decided to post it under my profile and will take the criticism.

First, I want to make a preface statement. Quite a few of you know I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in any gods. Most atheists would argue that being an atheist also means disbelieving in everything supernatural. I basically agree with that, except I would add that we disbelieve because of a lack of evidence.

Last November I met one of Northwest Indiana’s leading paranormal investigators at a random social meet-up. A few days later his group, Indiana Ghost Trackers, had a meeting, and I attended out of curiosity. I also joined. So far, I’ve been on seven hunts (which are more for fun, and open to the public. I haven’t been on a true investigation). Some members of my atheist group have a problem with me ghost hunting. I don’t see why they should. I’m not out to either prove or debunk the paranormal; merely observe reportedly haunted locations. Of the seven hunts I’ve been on, only two have had significant activity, at least from my point of view. I’m not going on hunts and simply saying, “Yep, this place is haunted.” I’m looking for evidence that a location is haunted. I don’t have much equipment for hunting ghosts, but I can monitor environmental data such as changes in electromagnetic frequency (EMF) activity and temperature changes (like cold spots). I can also try to capture electronic voice phenomena (EVP) with my camera. I try to gather data as objectively and scientifically as I can.

Saturday, October 20, I was on a hunt at a community center in an undisclosed Northwest Indiana city. While my first paranormal experience was far more intense, this month’s experience was better, in that I actually gathered evidence. The community center is a big building. On the first floor there was a birthday party going on, and some of the party noise was picked up in my video. We were given special permission to be in areas of the building that are normally inaccessible at that time. In a small stairway adjacent to a gym and a racketball court, we had several KII EMF meter hits when asking questions to a Mr. Sharp, the buildings former caretaker. Around the time the KII activity peaked, we heard a creaking or tapping directly above us, which I had already verified as unoccupied. A few minutes later, we went up to that area, and when I tried moving around where the floor had seemed to creak earlier, there was no creaking whatsoever. When I listened to the audio later, I heard an unidentified male voice right after we asked if Mr. Sharp was upstairs from us.

In my opinion, something paranormal happened in that stairway. I understand if you don’t believe my account. I’m the same way. Currently, I don’t believe humans have souls that live beyond physical death. But we’re made of energy, and I don’t think it’s too strange to think that somehow some of our energy might linger after we’re gone. Whatever the case may be, I think it’s worth looking into from an objective point of view. I’ll follow wherever the evidence I gather (or a lack of) leads.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

I think that this is cool.

Eventually, I think we will discover that what inhabits out physical bodies transfers to another plane/dimension - yet unexplained and beyond our senses. In time, it will be accepted as another level of energy existence.

Don't let anyone attempt to degrade this exploration of the unknown.

But....that Rick dude bothers me...just does....

[Paulie pchris00]

Oct 26, 2012 14:27:22 GMT -6 Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe said:

Eventually, I think we will discover that what inhabits out physical bodies transfers to another plane/dimension - yet unexplained and beyond our senses. In time, it will be accepted as another level of energy existence.

Don't let anyone attempt to degrade this exploration of the unknown.

I agree. Every scientist that has changed our fundamental view of the universe was mocked and thought of as a kook at first. We've had just over four hundred years of exploring the universe scientifically with telescopes, and much more recently, through other means. It's been just over a century that the paranormal has been explored through scientific means. There is so much to learn, and the pace is considerably slower, since mainstream science frowns upon investigation of the paranormal. I think an understanding is centuries away, but one day, we will indeed understand.

Oct 26, 2012 14:27:22 GMT -6 Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe said:

But....that Rick dude bothers me...just does....

Rick is a good guy, and good investigator. I can learn a lot from him.

[Paulie pchris00]

And I'm going to try to book a spot to hunt the old Porter County Jail here in Valpo tonight.

My first paranormal experience was in March at the old Lake County Jail. Something unseen grabbed me through the bars in the very cell block Dillinger infamously busted out of. Even went through the movie set inside the old jail that Johnny Depp filmed part of Public Enemies back in 2008. The place is absolutely decrepit, though.

[Paulie pchris00]

I actually kind of want to do a hunt at Conway. I've heard that there are haunted buildings at the park a mile north. Sometimes I hear strange things in the middle of the night. I think this falls under the rule that if you don't want to live in a haunted house, don't hunt your own house. Yeah, maybe not a good idea.

[Centaur]

Last night I passed the final exam at Harper College for the main portion of the real estate licensing course. We were taught that real estate brokers representing a home seller are nevertheless required to disclose any defects to a potential buyer. However, we are not required to report any claims of ghosts inhabiting a house. Seriously, we learned that in class.

I'm really surprised that you are drifting toward the woo side, Paulie. You might appreciate this fine 10-minute video which examines the concept of open-mindedness and uses belief in ghosts as a suspect example: www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

[-=CROMAN=-]

"Woo side".... That's funny. Nothing wrong with Wooing it up Paulie.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

I thought that 10 minute video was a Hygiene one at first.

Disappointed.

[Centaur]

Oct 26, 2012 22:43:52 GMT -6 Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe said:

I thought that 10 minute video was a Hygiene one at first.

Disappointed.

It was. It cleans up polluted minds.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

We are probably nearing the limit of all we can know about astronomy.

Simon Newcomb, Canadian-born American astronomer, 1888.

Finding answers to questions is never folly.

[Centaur]

Oct 27, 2012 6:29:51 GMT -6 Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe said:

We are probably nearing the limit of all we can know about astronomy.

Simon Newcomb, Canadian-born American astronomer, 1888.

Finding answers to questions is never folly.

This thread is not about astronomy. It's not about a new idea. It's about ghosts, a subject long investigated by science and found to be lacking.

“Keep an open mind, but no so open that your brains fall out." [/b]
James Oberg, NASA engineer and science writer

“An open mind should not be confused with credulity.”
From a personal communication to me by Craig F. Bohren, Ph.D.
Professor Emeritus of Atmospheric Physics, Penn State Department of Meteorology

“Nearly always people believe willingly that which they wish.”
Julius Caesar

[headdunce]

I've seen that "Long Island Medium" tv show and it's kinda freaky, if it's true.

Oct 26, 2012 19:45:00 GMT -6 Centaur said:

You might appreciate this fine 10-minute video which examines the concept of open-mindedness and uses belief in ghosts as a suspect example: www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

Not sure what that video is about with the opening of two overly groomed guys on a pink background taking about being open minded...

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice."

Heavier than air ships will never fly too.

[Centaur]

Oct 27, 2012 14:52:47 GMT -6 Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe said:

"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice."

Heavier than air ships will never fly too.

"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary." - Often True

"For those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice." - Rarely True

"Heavier than air ships will never fly too." - Further Investigation Required

[patrickm]

A Natural History of Ghosts by Roger Clarke - book review

What do we talk about when we talk about ghosts? By Michael Newton

guardiannews.com/books/2012/oct/26/natural-history-of-ghosts-roger-clarke-review?cat=books&type=article

-----------------

I feel like part of the problem is terminology and definition. If you presume that some unexplained phenomena are caused by dead people, labelled as ghosts, then you are answering your question before even doing any research on an answer, much as a Young Earther has when they scour the Bible for supportive quotes & pick and choose bits of scientific evidence to support them. On the other hand, investigating unexplained and recurring experiences seems worthwhile, and the more that we can remove both our faulty neurological system as trusted receptor and our predisposition to assign a cause supernatural, the better, and that would seem worthy. Our brains make shortcuts by assigning immediate meaning based upon past experience that sticks until proven otherwise. This is evolutionarily advantageous. Since most adult stimulus is not completely novel, we find ourselves with a set of canned reactions based upon past experience that will suffice in most instances and will thus free up the brain to worry about other, potentially more dangerous inputs and process a quick answer.

If a hotel room has consistently produced noises that have not been explained, then setting up equipment that may capture them seems possibly worthy; however,assuming that whatever you capture is a ghost is not scientific, even if you cannot explain it. Even capturing definitive changes in electromagnetic energy does not prove ghosts. It proves that the EM field changed and that is all. We must be careful about making a faulty inductive leap just because we want the answer to be what we want it to be (ghosts or spirits of the dead).

I am saying that some of these phenomena may indeed exist, but assigning them then to a deceased human being makes as much sense as assigning them to living lemurs. That also doesn't mean that a good ghost story or unexplained event can't be super spooky.

[-=CROMAN=-]

My family experienced years of activity in our home. While i never ran around with emf detectors and camerasi can tell you that what we experienced was terrifying at times. Just be careful with what you do in your research. Be it dead people, demons, whatever you want to callthem, they do exist and don't always have your best interest at heart.

[Centaur]

Oct 28, 2012 20:41:41 GMT -6 -=CROMAN=- said:

My family experienced years of activity in our home. While i never ran around with emf detectors and camerasi can tell you that what we experienced was terrifying at times. Just be careful with what you do in your research. Be it dead people, demons, whatever you want to callthem, they do exist and don't always have your best interest at heart.

When a house settles as the temperature cools in the evening, it creaks. The sounds can be similar to unintelligible male voices. The wind can have a similar effect. I learned this from my father when I was five-years-old.

When some people WANT to believe that some nonsense is true, they accept it as the default explanation without seeking evidence or considering alternatives. When several people together WANT to believe in some form of pseudoscientific conjecture, they reinforce each other and find no need to seek natural explanations.

This is the complete contrary of the scientific method, and I am surprised to read some of these notions on a supposedly scientific message board. Have you all viewed the entire video for which I provided a link earlier in this thread? There are many more brief quality videos related to critical thinking from the same production company at: www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup/videos?view=0

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

I and many others have experienced currently unexplained phenomenon first hand - ain't no wind nor settling.

Science can be closed minded, just as easily as a Taliban encampment, wanting to believe in comfortable set rules. The insane notion of black hole phenomenon was outright ridiculed by top astronomers when first proposed, but now accepted as text book astronomy. We won't even delve into the Galileo mishandling, Dark matter or Big bang theory pioneers.

It takes those to push beyond the established norm to expand knowledge and understanding - and the nay sayers also have a place to respectfully prompt evidence and question results. Keeps things honest.

Dr J Allen Hynek, Astronomer & Astrophysicist was a pessimist on the whole UFO mentality, but eventually accepted the possibilities.

I like this quote of his:

"Ridicule is not part of the scientific method, and people should not be taught that it is. The steady flow of reports, often made in concert by reliable observers, raises questions of scientific obligation and responsibility. Is there ... any residue that is worthy of scientific attention? Or, if there isn't, does not an obligation exist to say so to the public—not in words of open ridicule but seriously, to keep faith with the trust the public places in science and scientists? As a scientist I must be mindful of the past; all too often it has happened that matters of great value to science were overlooked because the new phenomenon did not fit the accepted scientific outlook of the time."

As a scientist, Hynek never states that UFOs are an extraordinary phenomenon. Good for him I say.


SETI could also be considered a "Pseudo science", throw in Astrobiology for the nuts who believe that extraterrestrials might exist.

This forum allows freedom to explore mysteries - both tangible and those not yet accepted/understood...even for the doubters.

[-=CROMAN=-]

Curt... When object fly across the room at you its not house settling. When you lay in bed and something crawls up next to you and makes am imprint in the bed its not house settling either. Your a smart man, that i give you. But when science can not offer a valid explanation you get arrogant, not cool my friend. It reminds me of how certain scientists were persecuted for saying the earth was round long ago. Not everything can be explained yet because the tools just aren't out there. Maybe ghosts aren't real, maybe its something else. Ive been arguing with guys like you for a longtime now, its like talking to a wall. I've been hit by things and members of my family and strangers had a multitude of experiences in my old house. I'm done believe what you want, i couldn't care any less .

Paulie... Have fun just watch yourself

Oh yeah one more thing... If you are "surprised to read some of these notions on a supposedly scientific message board"

The breadcrumb trail at the top of the page say's

The Chicago Astronomer :: Put the telescope away...It's Astronomy Free here! :: Ramblings, Ponderings and Other Synaptical Activity ::


This could be the answer

[Centaur]

How about insects or birds in a house? I suggest seeking natural explanations before assuming any supernatural notions are true by default. Even if natural explanations are not quick to come to mind, it seems unwise to automatically accept supernatural ones.

Ancient Greek researchers determined that the Earth was a sphere and provided a good estimate of its size well over two millennia ago. They gathered the evidence and developed a sound theory to explain it. Ever since then all educated people in western civilization have been taught that the Earth is round. Of course nearly four centuries ago Galileo was persecuted by the Catholic Church for demonstrating that the Earth revolves around the Sun. In that case, consider the source of the persecution.

It appears that the following statements in this thread require the presentation of more evidence before attempting to develop a rational theory to explain how it all fits together:

“… I don’t think it’s too strange to think that somehow some of our energy might linger after we’re gone.”

“Eventually, I think we will discover that what inhabits out physical bodies transfers to another plane/dimension - yet unexplained and beyond our senses. In time, it will be accepted as another level of energy existence.”

“Be it dead people, demons, whatever you want to callthem, they do exist and don't always have your best interest at heart.”

Some of the more inquisitive among you may find it enlightening to discuss similar conjectures with the good folks at these two forums:

forums.randi.org/forumindex.php
The founder of this group is a famous magician who wanted to make clear that his tricks are illusions and not real magic.

www.skepticforum.com
The founder of this group is a regular Scientific American contributor who wrote the marvelous book "Why People Believe Weird Things".

If that seems intimidating, then you may want to share your notions with a more sympathetic crowd at:

www.godlikeproductions.com
My only response in that forum was to a man who excitedly presented the video he shot that morning of a UFO which he insisted was an extraterrestrial visitor. He rebuffed those who told him he saw an airplane by stating he is 50-years-old and knows what airplanes look and sound like. I checked a NASA website and learned that the International Space Station could be seen over his town at the given time. My reply to him remains the last post in that long thread which had continued for less than a day despite "WOW!" in the headline.

[-=CROMAN=-]

After 28 years living there it is safe to say that a bird or insect couldnt hurl a lead glass vase across the room. That's actually a tame example

[Centaur]

Oct 29, 2012 10:27:54 GMT -6 -=CROMAN=- said:

After 28 years living there it is safe to say that a bird or insect couldnt hurl a lead glass vase across the room. That's actually a tame example

Large birds can. Other animals can. Wind can. Passing trucks or trains can. Earthquakes can. Yes, we've had several of the latter in the Midwest during my lifetime. I woke up one morning during the late sixties to see a lampshade swinging widely. It seemed spooky, yet it wasn't due to a ghost. News reports later revealed the earthquake.

Again, I suggest not resorting to the supernatural as a default explanation. As stated in the first video that I recommended in this thread, the unexplained is temporarily unexplained and should not automatically be attributed to the supernatural.

[-=CROMAN=-]

Large birds in my house threw a vase across the room into a wall? Quakes during the time that incident occurred...nope

For my family these incidents happened on an almost daily basis. There was always something going on ranging from tame to borderline life threatening at times.

I see where you are going with this but there simply is no rational explanation for most things that occurred in my old home.

When my brother was around 2 he would talk about a man named jimmy who would come into my brothers room at night. Sometimes jimmy frightened him and sometime jimmy would make him laugh. it wasn't until my family was leaving that house, through investigation, did we find out a man Jim hung himself in my brothers room around 1945.

Could my 2 yr old brother have overheard a conversation? Yes he could have, did he? No. Nobody was aware of that until recently, let alone a 2 year old kid.

The new owner saw a man standing over her bed a couple of years ago. While telling her story she was stopped so we could all tell her what we saw over the years. The same man, in the same flannel shirt. Yes the house had been checked for gas leaks, radon, mold, yadda.. yadda.. many many times over the years. Nothing scientific ever shows up out of the ordinary.

What I really used to like was walking into the house at night and hearing everything in the kitchen fall to the floor only to walk in and find nothing wrong. The cabinets that opened and closed when you walked past was also fun.

voices, smells, footsteps above your head in the small attic made for fun nights as well.

It's really easy to say people that experience things are simply not being logical. But when all logic fails and nothing else makes sense the conclusion ultimately falls into something supernatural. Unless you actually experience events for yourself you'll never truly understand and I wouldn't expect anyone to understand or believe.

[scottmason]

I can see this rapidly escalating into a big, long debate.
It's just like arguing faith: each side that believes strongly in their position will blow off the other side's reasoning and list their personal accounts and/or alleged proof or disproof.

I take the middle-ground. It's more exciting to listen to the accounts and wonder how it felt to be in a frightful situation like a ghost encounter. I try to keep an open mind without being gullible.
Of course, there will always be people that take paranormal and conspiracies too far, becoming obsessed and sometimes harboring unhealthy ideas that can make it hard to function in society. Those people can be stigmatized.
I think it's brave for Paulie to show his interest and I don't judge him for it. He's not trying to preach to us, just sharing his experience.

I wonder about the shows on TV lately. I like watching the Haunted. The people experiencing the hauntings will often hear or see things that end up being tied exactly to the previous owner's deaths etc with no prior knowledge. It really makes me wonder. However, some of the investigators in these shows seem to be too eager to hear and see things, like when an indistinguishable noise is heard they get excited and project their own thoughts on what was heard.

I recently went camping in Uttica, IL and the girlfriend and I ended up camped next to a cemetery. We went online to see if the cemetery was reported as being haunted. Several people reported activity next to the mausoleum in the cemetery, saying that groaning noises were heard coming from it.
We went to inspect the mausoleum after sundown and heard groaning in the distance. The cemetery is on a hill next to a busy biker bar, and the groaning was motorcycles on the highway behind the mausoleum.
It only took us a second to figure that one out! =P

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

There are too many independent and isolated incidents to simply dismiss as vivid imaginations. Not every single one of them.

Middle ground is a good place to be to enjoy the mystery, but question the evidence.

I ain't 'fraid of no ghost.

[patrickm]

A Halloween Physics Ghost Story

Possible Bubbles of Spacetime Curvature in the South Pacific
by Benjamin K. Tippett

In 1928, the late Francis Wayland Thurston published a scandalous manuscript in purport of warning the world of a global conspiracy of occultists. Among the documents he gathered to support his thesis was the personal account of a sailor by the name of Gustaf Johansen, describing an encounter with an extraordinary island. Johansen`s descriptions of his adventures upon the island are fantastic, and are often considered the most enigmatic (and therefore the highlight) of Thurston`s collection of documents.

We contend that all of the credible phenomena which Johansen described may be explained as being the observable consequences of a localized bubble of spacetime curvature. Many of his most incomprehensible statements (involving the geometry of the architecture, and variability of the location of the horizon) can therefore be said to have a unified underlying cause.

Read abstract & download full PDF here.

arxiv.org/abs/1210.8144

[Paulie pchris00]

I've been wondering if I wanted to kick this hornet's nest again, or let it be. Maybe it's not a good idea, but here goes a good, hard kick...

Everybody commenting above made some good points. Maybe I am rushing to judgment by even calling myself a ghost hunter. I'm not trying to change anybody's mind, just sharing my experiences so far. In a true paranormal investigation, every effort is made to ascribe a known, natural phenomena to any reported, recorded, or witnessed activity. I have yet to go on a true investigation, where only the best investigators are involved, and they have the time before, during, and after an investigation to explore likely possibilities. The hunts that I've been involved in are more for fun, and we don't have a chance to research the background of a location before the hunt, and rarely have time (and sometimes accessibility) to check out every rational cause. But we do look for obvious natural sources to explain any activity. I've averaged about one ghost hunt a month for over a year, and for the most part, it's boring. Either there is no activity, or the activity witnessed is almost certainly natural in origin. A good paranormal investigator is good at finding natural causes and/or hoaxes.

In this video, for dramatic effect I speculate in the introduction that an unfortunate soul might be trapped inside this ambulance. However, all data gathered so far (there is some I don't have access to yet) is very inconclusive. Although there were no unaccounted voices, we had a lot of EMF activity around this particular ambulance, as well as some others. It's pointed out in the video that the radio/dispatch room of this fire station is located nearby, although our fire department liaison mentioned that the equipment was out of date and unused. We couldn't get in to verify if any of the radio equipment was turned on or not. So make of it what you will. All I know for sure is that we were getting EMF readings that were nothing like the interference from our walkie-talkie, a known radio source.

Present were Mike, whom I had never met before, my brother-in-law Cecil, myself, with Jen joining us at some point, and Rich popping in a couple times, but didn't stay.

The video ends rather abruptly because the batteries in my camera died. Next month I'm going to try to obtain the data from the last few minutes of the session from a voice recorder Cecil borrowed from the group's equipment case. Cecil also borrowed a KII EMF meter, which was placed out of view from my camera. When Jen joined us, I was able to turn my camera to record the readings on her KII.

[Centaur]

Paulie, you might want to move your discussion over to this thread: forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=252408