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[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer

BELIEVING that God created the universe in six days is a form of superstitious paganism, the Vatican astronomer Guy Consolmagno claimed yesterday.

Brother Consolmagno, who works in a Vatican observatory in Arizona and as curator of the Vatican meteorite collection in Italy, said a "destructive myth" had developed in modern society that religion and science were competing ideologies.

He described creationism, whose supporters want it taught in schools alongside evolution, as a "kind of paganism" because it harked back to the days of "nature gods" who were responsible for natural events.

Brother Consolmagno argued that the Christian God was a supernatural one, a belief that had led the clergy in the past to become involved in science to seek natural reasons for phenomena such as thunder and lightning, which had been previously attributed to vengeful gods. "Knowledge is dangerous, but so is ignorance. That's why science and religion need to talk to each other," he said.

"Religion needs science to keep it away from superstition and keep it close to reality, to protect it from creationism, which at the end of the day is a kind of paganism - it's turning God into a nature god. And science needs religion in order to have a conscience, to know that, just because something is possible, it may not be a good thing to do."

Brother Consolmagno, who was due to give a speech at the Glasgow Science Centre last night, entitled "Why the Pope has an Astronomer", said the idea of papal infallibility had been a "PR disaster". What it actually meant was that, on matters of faith, followers should accept "somebody has got to be the boss, the final authority".

"It's not like he has a magic power, that God whispers the truth in his ear," he said.

Full source here: news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=674042006

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Vatican astronomer says creationism is superstition

The belief that God created the universe in six days is an unfounded superstition that both discredits religious faith and demeans science, the Vatican astronomer Guy J. Consolmagno SJ has declared.

Consolmagno, a Jesuit priest who in his scientific work has pioneered the field of gravitoelectrodynamics, described creationism, which proponents want taught in schools alongside or in place of evolution, as a “kind of paganism”.

Far from being a Christian viewpoint, it harks back to primitive beliefs in “nature gods” who were held responsible for natural events, he commented.

He added that a “destructive myth” has developed in modern societies that religion and science are competing ideologies – and that this is fed by creationism, which scholars say is a distortion of the biblical texts it claims as its own.

Fr Consolmagno works in the Vatican observatory in Arizona. He is also curator of the Vatican meteorite collection in Italy. In addition to his work in astronomy, he studied philosophy and theology at Loyola University, Chicago, and physics at the University of Chicago. He has spent several terms as a visiting scientist at the Goddard Space Flight Center.

Consolmagno, who spoke recently at the Glasgow Science Centre in the UK, argues that the distinctive Christian understanding of God’s transcendence recognizes divine creativity in the unfolding of natural phenomena which had been previously attributed to vengeful gods.

He declares: “Religion needs science to keep it away from superstition and keep it close to reality, to protect it from creationism, which [turns] God into a nature god. And science needs religion in order to have a conscience, to know that, just because something is possible, it may not necessarily be a good thing to do.”



Full story here: www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_060522creationism.shtml

[Centaur]

What's this? Another insensitive attack on Paganism? The priest acts as though it's a dirty word! How politically incorrect can one be? He'd better hope that the great and powerful Earth Goddess (a.k.a. Mother Nature) doesn't turn him into a slimy little swamp frog!

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

[Centaur]

I was afraid that would happen. Perhaps a beautiful young woman will give him a kiss and restore him to his human form. His lesson will have been learned. Then all good Pagans can come out of hiding after 1500 years of witch-hunting by an establishment whose authority crumbles before our very eyes. ;D

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Scientist: I don't talk to creationists

One of Britain's leading biologists says he has given up trying to debate creationists because his views are misstated or he is called names.

Steve Jones of University College London spoke at the Guardian Hay Festival on "Why Evolution Is Right and Creationism Is Wrong," The Guardian reported.

"I don't engage with creationists directly," he said. "If somebody has decided to believe something -- whatever the evidence -- then there is nothing you can do about it."

Jones said that believers in evolution are actually a minority worldwide, in spite of the mountains of evidence assembled since Charles Darwin's day.

In his talk, he also examined some of the recent mysteries of genetics and evolutionary study. One is that the number of genes in the human genome is only 30,000, a fraction of what scientists expected.

Geneticists have also found that women are biologically closer to chimpanzees than men are. That is because the Y chromosome, which only men carry, has changed more than the X chromosome.

Source: www.physorg.com/news68270881.html
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I agree...can't have a logical debate with a closed mind...

[tim]

Joe
Hope all is well with you and your's.

Referring to the article above about the vatican astronomer i would not be surprised to see a picture in the paper of the pope tossing Guy out the vatican back door since comparing Christianity to paganism is breaking the first commandment " Thou Shall Have No Other Gods Before Me ". Certainly paganism has every idol in the store that they worship. What a joke, can you imagine worshipping a wooden statue and expecting it to save your soul. I think they claim to beleive in God but if you would take a little time and read Matthew, the first book in the new testament, you would see they do not know god at all.

I believe that religion and science are so intertwined by Holy design, they can never be torn apart by man. Take for instance the three wise men were in the science of astronomy.

Here is a seminal presentation by astrophysicist Dr Hugh Ross that I hope you will find enlightening
www.cosmicfingerprints.com/audio/newevidence.htm

Tim
a believer and follower of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Hey Tim,

I have met Brother Consolmagno not too long ago and enjoyed his presentation on Trans- Neptunian objects. Learned a bit about the internal politics of the International Astronomical Union and the genesis of the Vatican Observatory.

I did not find him anti anything, but approached topics logically and scientifically during his talk. It wasn't Sunday school or pulpit teachings, but a lecture of an astronomer to the audience - who just happens to wear a collar.

Sometimes when one brand of belief is taught as the real truth, all other explanations are dismissed and branded as "Anti-God/church/establishment" (Just ask Galileo and Giordano Bruno - astronomer.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=Ancient&action=display&thread=1131423446 ).

What I interpret Br. Consolmagno as presenting is a belief free attempt explanation of the cosmos without the dogma of biased religious/social/class slant. Not easy, but here is a nice link on the various disciplines of Cosmology: www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Cosmology

One person may feel that the Earth rests upon the shoulders of Atlas and another that elephants carry the Earth on four points and yet others will fight you tooth and nail believing that the Big Bang created all. How many cultures have come and gone content on they knew the answer...only to be altered later by more advanced scientific knowledge. It's a learning curve that never ends...and constantly changes. Worldwide international astronomical/cosmological exploration should be belief free as a whole, for the many peoples arguing about who created what will never be solved. But pure scientific facts stand alone on their own. Each culture can then take the findings and incorporate them into their own beliefs and comforts.

So, try not to be so hard on the Brother, as I am sure he has his own beliefs like everyone else. Science fact based religion is cool.

"If nobody's right, is anybody wrong?" like the song says. There's plenty of room for everybody I say...

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

I knew when I posted the "Creationist = Paganist" story that it may start some discussion...and that's ok. I totally enjoy civil debate and presentation of different views. But I tried to avoid religious beliefs as a topic here at the Chicago Astronomer since the inception of the forum, for fear of offending good people and fellow astronomers. But since the article was directly an astronomical story, I felt it was justified.

Nothing brings up the ire of people more than when others dare tell them that what the elders taught them might be wrong or foolish. Such concepts are cause for righteous defense, retaliation and in the extreme - outright violence. Somewhat hypocritical I think, but that's human nature I guess. More people have died at the hands of religious fanatics than anything else in history...after all doesn't every army and movement in the world believe that God is on their side? My personal opinion is that what ever floats your boat, spins your wheels and brings you comfort...it's cool - as long as it's not imposed upon me. (Thank you U.S Constitution!... ) Be your belief in Mohammed, Shinto, Jehovah, Yahweh, Buddha, Gaia, Ala or the God of Abraham - I would be interested on how cosmology fits into your belief system. Believers, Atheists and Agnostics are all welcomed as we are all seekers of truth...just going about it in our own different ways...regardless of how goofy or illogical it may appear.

I'll monitor this thread, and if I feel it's going over the edge and just beating each other - well...then I'll cease it. But as people of science, I would hope for an intelligent exchange of ideas, regardless of origin or content.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Curt,

It's cool and I have often debated #argue# the issue with staunch ultra right-wing fundamentalist (scary ), and atheists (empty). I have an open mind and am among the billions before me and after me attempting to understand the concept of being, but in no possible way am I cocky or most certain that I know the answer. I don't.

Like a painting, everyone who views it has a different feeling and interpretation. One can share ones feeling about it with a friend and attempt to bias the observation, but ultimately, the person has to satisfy their own comforts. And such is religion/belief.

We have this silly looking sculpture in downtown Chicago by Picasso:

Some say it's a woman, others say it's a baboon. Some love it (kooks), and many say it's crap. But like all religions, (past, present and future), people attempt to explain the unknown of what they know. We no longer sacrifice young virgins to the Sun God, (most of us know better), but try to have challenged this "all knowing" belief and it was yourself who would have been sacrificed...INFIDEL!...

So....

In my opinion, a true and benevolent belief is one that accepts all interpretations without completely dismissing another's core belief as folly, because it provides them somethings and focus that none of us could ever provide.

As long as whatever you believe in doesn't hurt anybody else, (hardly the case), then it's all cool...

[tim]

Joe
I pray that some day you and curt find Jesus. As is said in the Holy bible, if they do not believe, shake the dust from your shoes and move on. Be happy.
Tim

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Tim,

I appreciate your prayers, as positive thought, meditation and good-vibes sent my way, (be it based upon Jesus, Budda, Mohammed or the like), is all embraced, welcomed and good.

A couple of quotes come to mind:

"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible."

"If everybody's thinking alike, somebody isn't thinking."

It's all cool and diversity refreshing... #Yay#

[Paulie pchris00]

I found this thread just browsing, and it reminded me of this article from two years ago that it's okay for Catholics to believe in life on other worlds:

uk.reuters.com/article/idUKL146364620080514


I'm no fan of religion, but I do wish sometimes that I could be one of the few (it seems to me) who can reconcile religion with science.