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[patrickm]

I am resurrecting this idea into a new thread because I am starting to get really serious about this. The trip to Jamaica only sharpened my desire for a scope with the best possible balance of stability, portability, and aperture. I don't need for it to necessarily be backpack portable, since we hike but don't really camp. I do need for it to not be an albatross on flight changes and in airports. My thoughts:

• At a size suitable for carry-on, refractors fail the aperture test.
  
• Infinity Scopes is in Indiana.
  
  • The box for the 8" scope has a 10" length that would not pass airline carry-on muster. It also looks like it could really use a rolling case, and thus fails the portability test.
    
  • The price difference from 6" to 8" also seems like a really big jump for the aperture increase.
    
  • The 6" seems like the best value here and the more portable.
    
  • Comfortable viewing from seated position
    
  • Total weight is 18lbs and will fit in overheard.
    
  • Set up time=three minutes.
    
  • Cost with anodizing & carry strap and no shipping as I would pick up: $2745
    
  • Wait time is 6-12 months.
    
  
  
• LiteScope is in Germany.
  
  • The 12" Mountain Eco-C scope looks like the one to go with here. Will take heavier eyepieces. Cost=$1900
    
  • A huge advantage in aperture over the Inifinty.
    
  • Perhaps oddly uncomfortable viewing positions, as you mostly need to lie on the ground to use it. People seem split on whether this is a cool thing or not. My knees are still good, so I consider it only a minor inconvenience. It does make it less than practical for group viewing though.
    
  • Needs a dew shield: $101 and light shroud: $169.
    
  • Very sensitive to wind.
    
  • Total weight is 17-19lbs and will fit in overheard.
    
  • Total cost is $2300 including shipping to US.
    
  • Wait time 7-12 months.
    
  
  
• My new favorite is Sumerian Optics out of The Netherlands.
  
  • His designs are fantastic, almost works of art. He is designing a new 10" travel scope that will weigh 20lbs.
    
  • I have sent him email asking about dimensions, as those are more important in US than weight.
    
  • Regular scope comes with secondary heating and fans, but I have to guess that this will not be included on the new travel scope. If that is the case, then this price should come in cheaper.
    
  • Set up time?
    
  • Best guess on pricing: 10" scope=$980
    
  • Optics: Orion Optics 250mm f-4.8 1/10 PV + 50mm (?) secondary $1263
    
  • TS 2 "Crayford 1:10 delay $208
    
  • TS 8 x 50mm $75
    
  • Total US$2526 and I have to get it here from Netherlands, but I have a friend there, so that should be no problem.
    
  • I see no indication of wait time on his website, but I have to guess it is similar to the previous two.
    
  
  

Given my parameters, I am leaning heavily toward the Sumerian scope. I look forward to return mail from him with some more specifics in it.

Here's a good cloud nights thread on travel scopes that raises issues with them all. Nobody there has tried the Sumerian scope though.

Julia and I plan on getting back to doing a lot of the traveling that we have put off over the last few years. We have some catching up to do, but it now feels like a necessity for me to take along a telescope to catch the skies as we do this.

PLEASE give me your feedback on these scopes and my crazy ideas. Where am I off? Or am I?

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

The Infinity Scope chick is hot.

And I like this scope the best.

Seems more protected than the others.

The Lightscope would be nice, but having that open mirror bothers me. Not only for the dirt that will find it's way on the the surface, but the radiated heat from your body affecting the image. A common complaint from owners of such.

I like how the Sumerian folds into a carrying case, but it still got that open mirror design. Cleaning mirrors cause more damage sometimes than good. And it'll be more than just haze.

I think perhaps these, although sweet, are over kill for traveling. Granted, the views will be memorable, but this is serious change here. For close home observing, they would be a nice secondary scope, where you can control the environment where you set up better. Hiking and in the open elements, with the bumps and extreme conditions...I dunno man.

Why not a Mak or C5/8 on a camera tripod?

[patrickm]

Joe,
As always for me, I have the DINK luxury that money is not the primary mover. I do, however, like perceived value.

So, do I read this right that Mr. Aperture Is Everything is telling me to trade down by 40-50% in aperture?!? Crazy!

These scopes all have trade-offs, yes? I will not be packing this scope to the top of a mountain unless my car can take us there. We are hikers, but not backpackers. Realistically, I'll be looking for a dark site near whatever hotel we happen to be staying at. We're talking somewhere near dark sky hotels or cabins here like we had in Jamaica, Lake Superior, Nicaragua, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Banff, or even our friends' homes in Michigan, S. Carolina, or outside Austin or Midland.

The Litescope has an optional shroud, which would help with light, heat, and dust. I think one could be rigged for the Sumerian quite easily. Both of them come with a baffle.

Sumerian setup time is 10 mins.

I would guess dust would be an ongoing issue as it is with any open scope. Enough of a problem to sacrifice 2x the aperture? Hmm.

How much of a problem is ambient body heat radiation? If it were huge, I can't see how these scopes would work at all. The review that is linked from the cloudynights thread didn't mention that at all.

That thread also says that wait time is 4-7 WEEKS for Sumerian scope, not months like for the other two. Haven't heard that from the maker though.

What Mak would you be suggesting?

A C5 on a photo tripod? How would that work?

Jordan's 5" won't fit in even the largest photography backpack that I could find. My 4.5" fits just barely.

And again...50% aperture loss?

Thanks!!!!

[atomant]

Hi Pat,

In the CloudyNights classifieds under reflectors, Barry Peckham of Litebox telescopes was selling his 6in travelscope.
Measures 9x9x14 at 18#.
Made in Hawaii!
For $650.

For me, I prefer a compact APO refractor as travelscope.
I see it as an extension of my binoculars.
No obstructed, very contrasty views without troublesome collimation.
Mount scope on Kenko KDS alt/az head on Gitzo cf photo tripod.
You can later use your scope as guidescope to your 9.25 Edge for high powered astrophotos.

Infinity does a great job in marketing though.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Aperture has it's place, but not king of all and often I reach for the 90mm/C5 for quick set-ups and imaging...leaving the C11 sleeping.

Maks are good portable scopes, as even Charles Bronson used one as his spy optics of choice in the movie "The Mechanic". Chicago Astronomer Steve has one....



Maks are nice, but a drawback is that the front corrector plate is thick...and may take longer to cool down.

Photography backpacks are overly expensive and not made for tubes. A well padded normal backpack works fine, which I used for my C5 before it's present home.


You don't see many open mirror scopes in practical usage for a reason. That large hunk of glass is susceptible to minute variations in temp and ambient conditions. A little windy? That shroud will act as a wind sail.

Still want the aperture?...then why not get a kick around Dob that you can plop down and start with minimal fuss? You can even use the 2" eyepieces too.

And all what Bill said.

[patrickm]

Joe,
The aperture we are talking about here is specifically for a travelscope. I don't need a kick around dob for Chicago...I really wanted aperture in Jamaica though to take advantage of our dark sky location (for a change). Being at a place where you can EASILY see galaxies (even in binoculars) and not having a scope is quite frustrating.

The idea of having a large aperture scope in a place like that is quite appealing.

Why should I not buy the Hawaii scope? No mention of setup or collimation time, though. I sent him a note and may snag it.

[patrickm]

I heard from Barry Peckham about his travel scope. (Thanks Bill!) Here said:

Yourquestions answered:
Set up depends on how far you break it down between uses.
It is so small that a frequent user wouldn't break it down beyond these 3 parts: travel box/rocker box/OTA, in which case set up is less than a minute. The ultimate breakdown may require 15 minutes of set-up, but in that case you will have been flying with the scope, or had it stowed away for the winter.
Collimation is the same as with any 3 bolt collimation system. Usually takes less than a minute, using a laser collimator.

So there's that. Since it is available now, I am tempted to just buy the thing and then keep pondering the Sumerian. The more I read about it, the more I really want the 10" travel version.

The Lite Scope aperture and lightness is appealing and the design ingenious, but rolling around on the ground is not. All three of the alternatives avoid that.

Michael from Sumerian says:

First. Thank you very much for your interest.
The new 10" travel telescope is not so new anymore. I have already sold 5
or 6 of them.
The weight of the telescope is 9kg and the dimensions broken down are 6,5
x 16 x 13 inches.

If I can send the telescope to a friend of yours in Den Haag it is
absolutely no problem.

The delivery time is somewhere around 12 weeks. Right now it is incredible
busy and that means the delivery time is somewhere around 12 weeks.

Kind regards,
Michael Kalshoven
Sumerian Optics

i have asked him about the questions posed here about ambient light, wind, and mirror grime, but I think these problems would be a problem for any travel dob, yes? So that seems like a trade off that must be made for portable aperture.

Imagine sitting at 9000' on Mauna Kea with any of these scopes, but especially a 10" or 12"?!!? Given enough Clif Bars, I might never come down.

Here are some CN threads that address most of these issues:
www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=reflectors&Number=4184458&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=
www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=reflectors&Number=4458950&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=
www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=reflectors&Number=4390524&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

See especially the UTI8 reviews. The pilot that writes on there expresses my sentiments for why I want a good travel scope better than I've been able to. Now I just need to pick one...
p

[patrickm]

Heard back from Michael at Sumerian Optics with more answers leading to more questions. So far, his customer service is way better than mine!

Hello Patrick,

The new Propus is very small because for a 10" GSO mirror I can use a simple 3-points cell. The first Propus is much different. The other mirror cell needs more space so the whole structure is much bigger. To big for a 10" travel telescope.

The Alkaid is a compact version of the Propus. In the box the entire
layout is different. It is possible to bring a 12" Alkaid as carry-on.

And than the Canopus. No travel dobson. More stable, easier te build and no focuser or finder limits.

For my own telescopes I never use a shroud. But if I want a shroud it is to stop my body heat. Especially with planetary observing. Dust is not really a problem for this open telescope. And I deliver every telescope with a mirror cover and big light shield.

The wind. I think all dobsons have problems when there is a strong wind. The Propus doesn't have more problems.

Regards,
Michael

I agree with him on the wind thing and without my own experience, the body heat deal seems reasonable, too. Both of my scopes have problems in the wind: the refractor in any wind and the SCT if the dew shield is on. This seems to me a trade-off for the type of scope, though without a shroud, then that wouldn't be a problem really. And the seeing related issues would seem to only really show up on planetary and lunar viewing. The DSOs rely more on transparency, no?

My questions for him have more to do with the scope that is listed on his website as his new travel scope for €900 all in vs. the pricing listed elsewhere on his website. So I am confused about that and hope for more clarification. I will share when I get it.

Thanks,
p

[patrickm]

Hey, more info from Michael at Sumerian with good news!

On May 25, 2011, at 6:14 PM, Sumerian Optics wrote:

Hi Patrick,

Indeed the Propus on the page is different from the New Propus. But the box has the same layout.

Let's call the Propus on the "Propus page" the Propus MK I and the New Propus -> Propus MK II.

The MK I (and Alkaid) is a custom made telescope. The prices on the page are without optics and focuser. But you can choose your own optics, finder and focuser. The MK II is more a serial product so I can keep the price lower. This means that I can deliver a complete telescope for 900 euros including GSO Optics, Antares focuser, primary cooling, secondary heater and RDF. Only you can not choose another optics and accessories.

The MK II is specially designed for hand luggage on the plane. The sizes or weight will never be any problem. The MK I is bigger and weighs more. This telescope can be a problem for hand luggage.

I hope this will answer your questions and take away the confusion.

Regards,
Michael

So my biggest questions are answered, leading to newer, more minor questions:

Michael.

MUCH clearer. Thank you! I was driving myself around in circles trying to figure that out.

So $1266 for a first class travel scope...that's pretty hot! If I change one thing, like say the RDF, does it automatically revert to the a la cart pricing, and thus almost double the price of the scope??

So now to nitty gritty questions, if I was going to travel with 2 Televue EPs, would there need to be any changes to the scope? I think I saw somewhere that the balance is not made for the heavier EPs. How is that handled?

Aside from weight/balance issues, does this focuser have enough travel to handle all eye pieces? What are the practical limits to get things to focus?

Do I still get to pick colors, so is it the Henry Ford system where "you can have any color you want as long as it is black"? I am OK with black, actually.

The price he quotes here drops it in HALF from the above a la carte pricing! That's much more reasonable and a much bigger aperture than the Infinity or Barry Peckham's cool scope without having to roll on the ground like the Lite Scopes!

Now what say you?

[atomant]

Hey Pat
There's a UTI scope in AMart classifieds. Less than $2k.

The Sumerian scope looks cool. But will need a lot of practice to put together.
Remember a small scope in dark skies is still darn good.
Steven O'Meara of astronomy mag still just use 5in scope from Hawaii.

[patrickm]

Working on my order with Sumerian Optics for my new travel scope.

For a dob, Crayford or Moonlight Crayford?

Is a red dot finder adequate? I find it worthless in the city, but in dark sky locations, perhaps it is fine?

Options are here:
www.sumerianoptics.com/price-list/

Thanks for any input. I really do listen!
p

[Paulie pchris00]

Jun 29, 2011 22:04:46 GMT -6 patrickm said:

Is a red dot finder adequate? I find it worthless in the city, but in dark sky locations, perhaps it is fine?

Maybe in a truly dark sky a red dot would be okay, but I doubt it. Best to go with a 6x or 7x finder scope; even a little magnification will pull out bright DSOs, and perhaps those not so bright as well. With the red dot, you can't get lucky just by being close.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

I'm not a fan of the Red Dot finders.

I use on on the C5, but only because I got it for nothing.

It'll get you in the general area and is useful, but it tends to blot out the target with an overlapping 1 or 2 degree blot. Under high magnifications in the main tube, the alignment better be right on the nose.

I like the Zero-mag Rigels for getting to the general area. Concentric circles, dimmable and flashable. Lat night at the star party I aligned the on-board laser with the Rigel on the C11....and it got me to my target everytime - like an arrow to the target.

But zero-mags are only auxiliary and a true optical finder scope is required.

It'll work itself out....

[patrickm]

Woo!

From Michael at Sumerian:

This is the proposal for the 10" Travel dobson:
- 10" Travel dobson, including optics (GSO mirrors), finder (Skywatcher RDF), focuser (Antares helical),
primary cooling, secondary heater and completely finished.
Costs € 995,-.

Your travel dobsonian
- 10" Travel dobson (€ 995,-) minus GSO primary (€ 279,-) minus RDF (€
23,-) minus Antares focuser (€ 89,-) plus 10" Huygens Optics primary (€
495,-) plus Orion 6 x 30mm Angled finder (€ 45,-). Total costs; € 1144,-) .
- Shipping (Den Haag?, Netherlands) € 30,-.
Telescope € 1144,- + shipping € 30,- = total costs € 1174,-.

Delivery time is 3 months.

All attempts at bribery for speedier delivery have been turned away. Other than that, I am super psyched.

Because I wasn't first deducting the cost from the package of the options I didn't want, my initial pricing was way too high. I am ordering the Moonlight 2" Crayford 1:8 focuser myself and sending to him. Will be much cheaper even with postage.

Gotta find a dark sky somewhere toward the end of October!

Thanks for your help and guidance on this project!!!
p

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

This is very cool and I'm excited for you.

Very cool.

[patrickm]

Thanks, Joe!! Me too!

Super thankful for your help and devil's advocate advice, forcing me to think through everything on all sides before leaping. Now it's just gonna be a long wait.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

When you get this cool instrument, We'll do a write up and document it all.

[patrickm]

That sounds good, Joe. Am sure that will all work itself out in October. :-)

Already thinking about a higher power eyepiece for this fast scope. An 8mm Ethos gives 156x. A 6mm gives 208x. 208 is probably pushing it on magnification, yes? I know I need to stay away from the extra weight of a Barlow.

So maybe traveling with a 41mm or 36mm, 13mm, & adding an 8mm would do the trick? Never too soon to start trolling for a used EP as long as I'm looking for the right focal length. I know it's the right FOV. :-)
p

[patrickm]

Robert Campbell posted a cool Flickr set of the setup for his 10" Sumerian travel scope and gave an encouraging report about it on Cloudy Nights.

www.flickr.com/photos/robertcampbell/sets/72157626585129468/

[patrickm]

Oh, look!
www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=740315

$60 off best price I can find new. I lept.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Joe whistles......!

[patrickm]

Which whistle? Hailing a cab? Construction worker seeing hot broad? Man, that's expensive?

[atomant]

Construction worker seeing hot broad. The Sumerian scope is a feat of engineering!

[RobbW]

I'm kind of in the same boat as Patrick, looking for a decent grab-n-go rather than a travel scope, though. And since I have neither the stringent requirements nor the disposable income of our friend, I will start my own thread to illicit advice, comments, and recommendations!

[wwpierre]

This thread has me dreaming of selling my LB and flying to Amsterdam to pick up one of those works of art.

Never been to Europe. My only travel off continent was two working trips to Japan in the 90's.

I have a recurring dream of travelling to Europe and losing my luggage and passport. Sometimes I am naked. The other night I was in Amsterdam, and in the dream I said to myself, "I am really here". This was on the way back to a parking lot to get my pickup, which had somehow accompanied me, presumably not in my carry-on luggage.

I was in my socks, having somehow lost my shoes.

[patrickm]

I think in Amsterdam, nobody would really bat an eye over anything but the pickup. There, it's all about the bike.

[patrickm]

Last week I finally got around to ordering my MoonLite focuser: 1.5" drawtube, 8:1 dual rate, tri-knob, compression, in loverly gold.

www.focuser.com/cgi-bin/dman.cgi?page=productdetail&plugin=dstore.cgi&product=CR

It is winging its way to Amsterdam as we speak, at a savings of about $150 over Sumerian pricing & currency conversion. He is still shooting for third week in October.

Next task is figuring out safe & economical shipping from Holland to Chicago, but not too worried about that. Will get that sorted with my pal over there. Once I know when it will arrive, we'll schedule our trip up to Traverse City, MI area, which we've been pondering for a while. Quiet time with dog and dark skies. Will get giddy when the time comes.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Patrick,

That's a hot lookin' piece of hardware.

I anticipate seeing it in person.

Very cool.

[RobbW]

*drool*

It's so pretty and shiny! Can I touch it?

[patrickm]

Joe,
Me, too! Can't wait. Have to.

Robb,
Of course, but me first.

Wonder which eyepieces would work best if I only pack two or three? Ideas? WWAJD?

Perhaps 50mm super Plossl, 31mm Hyperion, 8mm Ethos?