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[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

NASA Researchers Claim Evidence of Present Life on Mars

I knew it...I have been saying it all along. The evidence of PRESENT life on Mars is too great to ignore. There are constant images from orbiting probes that show standing water, growing and shrinking algae colonies etc...

The Rover captured a segmented fossil and quickly destroyed the specimen with the onboard RAT tool. I am excited on the release of this info:
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WASHINGTON -- A pair of NASA scientists told a group of space officials at a private meeting here Sunday that they have found strong evidence that life may exist today on Mars, hidden away in caves and sustained by pockets of water.

The scientists, Carol Stoker and Larry Lemke of NASA’s Ames Research Center in Silicon Valley, told the group that they have submitted their findings to the journal Nature for publication in May, and their paper currently is being peer reviewed.

What Stoker and Lemke have found, according to several attendees of the private meeting, is not direct proof of life on Mars, but methane signatures and other signs of possible biological activity remarkably similar to those recently discovered in caves on Earth.


More from Space.com: www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_life_050216.html

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Now, I understand that the announcement of life...anykind of life...would challenge fundamental beliefs, and therefore NASA is releasing info with a eyedropper. Bit by bit

It's only a matter of time now until the official word is given on the discovery of life...but we knew that already...

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Ice Packs and Methane on Mars Suggest Present Life Possible, European Team Says

Astrobiologists Starting to openly Discuss present Life on Mars...

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A European space probe has found evidence for large blocks of water ice just beneath the Martian surface in relatively warm conditions near the equator.

The frozen sea of sorts, if follow-up studies confirm it, would be the first large quantity of water ice on Mars confirmed to exist near the equator, researchers say. And it would be a good place to search for present life.

"This is a historic moment for Mars exploration when a previously neglected region reveals its secrets," Jan-Peter Muller of the University College London said in a statement today. "Speculations that this area might have water close to the surface have been shown to be correct."

The findings could be important for biology, Muller and his colleagues say.

"Higher levels of methane over the same area mean that primitive micro-organisms might survive on Mars today," the statement reads.

More here from Space.com: www.space.com/scienceastronomy/050222_mars_ice.html

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I think the ESA is more forthcoming in both recognizing potential and sharing hypothesis than NASA is. I think that's good, and perhaps it will prompt the U.S. to push ahead aggressively.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Frozen sea suggests possible life on Mars today, researchers say

And now we get news about the distinct possibility of a frozen Lake existing on Mars right now, as we read these posts...

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Courtesy University College London
and World Science...

A frozen sea on Mars indicates life might exist there today, researchers say .

This is the first evidence of there having been recent liquid water on Mars, added researchers from the international team of scientists who reported the discovery.

Higher levels of methane over the same area mean that primitive microbes might survive on Mars today, the researchers added. Methane is produced by many microbes. The images of pack ice near the Martian equator were taken by the a stereo camera on the European Space Agency’s Mars Express probe.

The results of the work by the team lead by John Murray of Open University, Jan-Peter Muller of University College London, and Gerhard Neukum of the Free University of Berlin were presented at an European Space Agency Mars Science Conference at ESTEC, Netherlands on February 21, and are to be published in the scientific journal Nature next month.

Muller said: “This is a historic moment for Mars exploration when a previously neglected region reveals its secrets. Speculations that this area might have water close to the surface have been shown to be correct. This is one of many discoveries that we expect the European Space Agency to make with Mars Express and the Aurora programme, given future UK support.”

Murray, of the Department of Earth Sciences at the OU, said: “The fact that there have been warm and wet places beneath the surface of Mars since before life began on Earth, and that some are probably still there, means that there is a possibility that primitive micro-organisms survive on Mars today. This mission has changed many of my long-held opinions about Mars – we now have to go there and check it out.”


More here from World Science news: www.world-science.net/othernews/050222_marsseafrm.htm

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The evidence just keeps piling on.

[Maddad]

They're saying that a layer of volcanic ash covering the ice would have prevented it from sublimating, which is how it could still be there when it is gone from most other places on Mars. It seems reasonable that at least some areas would have had ashfalls, so there should be a few areas that still have this water ice.

[TheCriticalEye]

Again Joe I think you are grasping at straws with a pre-conceived belief that life is already living on mars and always has been.

Everything that I ever have read is still speculation from current findings. Speculations arenta given and all point morethan one direction.

Why would NASA not suposedly be not forthcoming over scientific findings? To me there is nothing to hide nor is there any evidence that anything is hidden.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Naw...I don't think so.

We all grew up believing what they told us about Mars.

In that Mars was quite an inhospitable world, quite dry with certainly no water, with carbon dioxide firmly locked in it's poles. Oxygen...?, not a chance. Adhering to those standards, the science of Astrobiology is a psudo-science and not of any value at all...as it implies life beyond the Earth. I'm sure the individuals with doctorates in the field will be dissapointed.

Frozen Sea Once Near Martian Equator?

The discovery of a frozen sea close to the equator of Mars has brought the possibility of finding life on Mars one step closer. This is the first evidence of there having been recent liquid water on Mars. Higher levels of methane over the same area mean that primitive micro-organisms might survive on Mars today. The 3D images of pack ice near the Martian equator have been taken by the High Resolution Stereo Camera on board the Mars Express probe.

Professor Jan-Peter Muller, Department of Geomatic Engineering, University College London (UCL), one of two UK co-investigators on the project, said: "This is a historic moment for Mars exploration when a previously neglected region reveals its secrets. Speculations that this area might have water close to the surface have been shown to be correct. This is one of many discoveries that we expect the European Space Agency to make with Mars Express and the Aurora programme, given future UK support."

Funny...there's that word " Speculation".


More here from Astrobiology magazine: www.astrobio.net/news/article1455.html

We now know differently... and the old concepts from our elders needs to be politely put away along with the Earth centered system and evil spirits causing disease.

To divulge actual acknowledgment of present life, is to challenge basic human, social and religious beliefs. Of course to the scientific and progressive mind, we would all welcome the news, but most of humanity is too busy fighting amongst themselves, attempting to shove their brand of beliefs upon everybody else.

NASA is playing it cool and safe, disseminating the news slowly and with an eyedropper...acclimating the populous to the eventual fact of life off Earth. The ESA is bolder with speculating about current possibility of life on Mars. NASA will soon have to follow. We had a perfectly fossil of a chrinoid oraganism, but the RAT tool onboard completely destroyed it. But luckily we have the before and after images.

No, I'm not wishfully thinking and seeing things that are not there, nor am I waiting on top of the Sears Tower here in Chicago welcoming the aliens. Imaged directly from orbiting probes are: water flows on the surface, possible evidence of algae and by-products of living organisms have been detected in the atmosphere.

But the ever increasing and developing news of conditions right for life will speak for itself without me proselytizing about it. The mainstream headlines will contunue and I will continue to post them...But for some, until it's in the text books, it will only be speculation, heresay and stuff of science fiction.

[Centaur]

Unfortunately, too many folks grasp at what they "want" to believe. That includes some "professional" scientists who should be putting most of their efforts into falsifying theories, not merely reaching for supporting evidence. Remember how a century ago Percival Lowell had everyone believing in artificially constructed canals on Mars. Much more recently some alleged scientists jumped on the notion that Martian meteorites contained micro-fossils. That was until some conscientious European scientists debunked that hypothesis. The media played up the original conjecture, especially after NASA got President Clinton to make the announcement (adroit politician that he was), but then ignored its falsification.

Those same second-level scientists and engineers know, either consciously or subconsciously, that the receipt of government grants depends on them catering to the public's hopes, wishes and dreams. So they keep looking for extraterrestrial life and water, because that keeps public funds flowing their way. Admitedly, as one who appreciates exploration of the solar system, I'm not going to stand in their way.

Be careful what you wish for though: advanced extraterrestrial life forms would be in competition with our own DNA. You are more closely related to a blade of grass than to any ET. If they indeed exist, however, don't worry about any direct battles in the immediate future. It they could do it, they would have wiped us out already in a preemptive strike (just as we do with any vermin), and we would not be holding this discussion.

In any event, be prideful that our bio-system has produced the likes of Newton, Einstein, et al, rather than Eloi-like dependence on knowledge gained from superior and supposedly "benificent" beings. As those good scientists would do, wait for concrete evidence from Mars before declaring fantasies to have been proven. Then lock and load your weapons.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Eloi

LOl....

I wouldn't mind an Eloi like dependance if all the women folk looked like Weena.

Lession: To keep the Morlocks from dragging your vehicle away, activate your patented Time Machine alarm and club.

[Maddad]

TheCriticalEye said:

Again Joe I think you are grasping at straws with a pre-conceived belief that life is already living on mars and always has been.

I think it's the other way around if anything about what's going on can be described as "grasping at straws".

Because of the panspermic mechanism, life bearing rocks would have been repeatedly exchanged between Earth and Mars over the last four billion years. The most likely guess for early Martian conditions would have been favorable for life.

Life on Mars in the past is so likely that it is difficult to envision a scenario that would have prevented it and also be consistent with what we do know for sure. We would like to positively rule out the possibility that life ever existed on Mars. It may seem like trying to prove the obvious, but that is the nature of science. We are grasping at whatever possibility there might be that life didn't exist.

[Maddad]

Centaur said:

Be careful what you wish for though: any extraterrestrial life forms would be in competition with our own DNA. You are more closely related to a blade of grass than to any ET. If they indeed exist, however, don't worry about any direct battles in the immediate future. It they could do it, they would have wiped us out already in a preemptive strike (just as we do with any vermin), and we would not be holding this discussion.

Microbial life is pathologic to us because it has evolved in a shared environment. It evolved to take advantage of our existence. If we were much different at all then we would be of no use to the bugs, so they would not live in our bodies. By the same token, if the bugs were much different from earthly microbes, then they would be unable to grow in us as their environment.

If we find alien bugs on Mars or elsewhere, they will not be pathologic to us. They may, in fact, be extremely challenging to culture, just as the leprosy causing microbe Mycobacterium leprae is. It is so picky that we can only culture it in armadillo footpads. The bug likes a lower body temperature, which is why the disease shows up in the extremities such as the fingers and toes. What is that temperature difference? A degree Celsius? That one degree is the difference between the bug taking hold and growing, or dying and never being noticed by us.

[Centaur]

Maddad --

In that paragraph I was referring to advanced ET's, not microbes. I should have made that clearer. Nevertheless, primitive life forms can evolve to take fuller advantage of available resources and ecological changes. That could eventually make them competitive with other entities whose environment they have begun to share.

The earlier post has now been properly edited by changing one word. Thank you for revealing the need for that, and also for providing informative commentary.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Great line of thought going on.

Minds open to the possibilities of extraterrestrial life enables intelligent and thought provoking conversation.

To dispel any notion of astrobiology is to cease intelligent conversation, ignore logic and quell dialog.

Good stuff.

[Centaur]

I'm sensing from more than one poster here that the scientific method is to be abandoned. One does not declare an hypothesis to be true simply because it has not yet been proven wrong. That is much like being unable to prove to someone that God does not exist, therefore He must exist. The proposer must provide evidence that his theory is correct. It cannot be based simply on his belief that it "must" be true or he would "like" it to be true, even if no proof has yet been provided. If something has been found in a single sample and nowhere else, it cannot then be generalized to occur everywhere.

A reasonable theory must be falsifiable. It cannot be something that can only be proven false if it has never been seen to occur. In that case the proposer could always argue that the scientific community hasn't waited long enough. The proposer must produce compelling evidence that others can attempt to dispute. Until he has done so, prudence demands disbelief.

Yes, visionaries are always welcome to propose new theories. Alas, they are usually proven wrong long before the public ever hears about them. But our overall knowledge is enhanced by the few that make it through all the hurdles set by the skeptics. A healthy skepticism makes for good science. A lack of it detracts from the credibility of science whenever a long accepted theory is later proven to have been incorrect.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

ESA Acknowleges evidence conditions for Life on Mars

NOORDWIJK, Netherlands (AP) - Scientists said Friday they have discovered possible evidence of frozen seas and volcanic activity on Mars and called for a follow-up mission to find if there is life on the red planet.

The recommendations came at the end of a weeklong meeting in the Netherlands held to analyze results from the European Space Agency's Mars probe.

"This mysterious lady is slowly revealing her secrets," NASA scientist Everett Gibson said. "From what we've seen Mars meets all the requirements that are needed for life to exist."

The conference revealed the likely existence of a frozen sea near its equator, as well as signs of lava flows 20 million years ago.

"You can see baby (volcanic) cones. I think they're still growing," said Professor Gerhard Neukum, who led the analysis of the high-resolution photographs taken by the Mars Express probe orbiting around the planet for the past year.

More here: apnews.excite.com/article/20050226/D88FRQP00.html

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I feel it's only a matter of time that the presence of life will be announced on Mars. More evidence continues to pile on on a regular basis for this conjecture and soon it may be so overwhelming that the naysayers shall have to concede to the evidence.

I can wait.

[Maddad]

Centaur said:

I'm sensing from more than one poster here that the scientific method is to be abandoned. One does not declare an hypothesis to be true simply because it has not yet been proven wrong.

Ah, no. I thought I'd posted on Science as Falsification; maybe not. Anyway, I was making the case that we don't prove theories. We try to disprove them. When we fail to do so, we make the theory stronger. It's tough to say you've proved your theory because tomorrow some grinning gerble is going to find the exception you didn't think about.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Grinning gerbles and Eloi's...

This Discussion is certainly fun. ;D

Now... all we need are albinos and drunken dwarfs and we are all set.

[TheCriticalEye]

It isn't what is going on in science acadamia. It is what is mis interpreted in outlets of certain scientific findings.

Joe claims that it is FACT that life has been found on mars. Fact is it is still speculation. Many fasinating discoveries have been made thus far from these mars expiditions. I'm sure many more in the decades to come.

Absolute life in past or present isn't of conclusion as of yet.

" University (OU), said "The fact that there have been warm and wet places beneath the surface of Mars since before life began on Earth, and that some are probably still there, means that there is a possibility that primitive micro-organisms survive on Mars today."
www.astrobio.net/news/article1455.html

Please notice the key words ( probability and possibility)

When in the scientific method words like "conclusive or conclusion" makes it more a fact or truth. Than still speculation from incomplete data. That is all I am trying to say.

[Maddad]

Funny thing is that we've had almost exactly this same discussion, citing the same logic (and in some cases lack thereof ), at another forum I attend.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Dave,

What was the outcome of the discussion in the other forum?

The evidence of PRESENT life on Mars is too great to ignore.

That was my opening statement on this thread. It clearly states "Evidence"...not slimy crawly things, nor multi-tentacle creatures nor even creatures from the Id.

Regularly, new evidence is announced by the space explorers...with some speculating that they believe life exists today. But to go a step further, yep...I do believe that there is currently....right now....life on Mars. Single celled most likely and underground, but life regardless.

Seeping water, methane, "warm" temps at the equator, clouds, great ancient sea basins...conditions all pointing to a suitable and fostering environment on the planet...certainly in the past, and likely now. Here on Earth, life abounds in conditions much less hospitable and once thought totally barren of life by mainstream thinking. Organisms thousands of years old found in the Antarctic spring back to life when thawed out and thriving colonies of multi celled creatures in the total blackness of the deepest oceans.

But we know better.......

It's all a matter of time.

[Maddad]

Chicago said:

Dave, What was the outcome of the discussion in the other forum?

We quickly agreed that evidence for life is accumulating, but we're still not at the conclusive level yet. There were two issues. One was whether there was ever any life, and the other was whether there is life now. Although the jury's still out on both questions, we're hoping the answer is yes to both.

Finding conclusive evidence for life may need a living culture returned to Earth from Mars. Even so, the issue of contamination will still bother anyone claiming conclusive evidence. The conclusive evidence would be if the microbes had unique characteristics not found on earthly bugs. Even with that, you would have to show that the difference was great enough that earth microbes could not have mutated these traits in the time given to them.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Here is an interesting site with no less than five mainstream news articles about the good chance of life on Mars.

astronomer.com/

It appears that the European Space community is comfortable with announcing the evidence for life presently on Mars is at hand.

[Maddad]

Personally, I don't see how life didn't[/i] get started on Mars. You have conditions suitable for it and an exchange of material with Earth which did have life. It would be a real puzzler if it turns out that Mars never had life.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Dave,

I so heartedly agree with you on that.

Life, once it get's hold, is quite difficult to eradicate. It always finds a way to survive somehow...someway. And I think that is the case presently on Mars right now.

I am sure we will find fossils all over the place on Mars, and we have already imaged a nice fossil specimen by the Mars rover Opportunity, but remarkably nothing has been announced by the officials at NASA:

It is thought the the fossil is similar to the Earth-based crinoid organism:

Incredibly, the RAT abrasion tool on the rover ground up the specimen, totally destroying it!

Direct image from NASA here: marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/m/034/1M131201618EFF0500P2933M2M1.HTML

The series of raw images here: marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/opportunity_m034.html

Now, don't take my uneducated opinion on this, for I'm just a simple Amateur Astronomer, but any logical and deductive thinking process will come to the same conclusion as well. This is the kind of discoveries one would expect to find at the bottom of a dried up ocean basin, in as where the Rover landed.

Science and discovery drudges thru the muck that is human frailty and fear. Always has, always will.

Too bad.

[Maddad]

Those pictures and others like them will be a source of much debate. Howsomever, to take the next step up and say that they are conclusive evidence of life, we must show that there can be no non-biologic processes capable of producing them. Short of bringing back a physical sample from Mars, which the European Uniion is now talking about doing, I don't see us being able to make that claim.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Yes...I agree on that.

The true aspect of science, one would need to physically examine a specimen and tear it down while examining it's componants. But...

Then how can we (the scientific community - professional and laymen), state with any assurance and certainty of objects so far away from us, that we will never know the true nature of them all. But yet, we accept the theories as "gospel". With the same line of thought, and through distant observations, I am quite comfortable in the evidence so far produced from our probes in stating life exists on Mars today...and so does the E.S.A...

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From the "China Daily":

Red planet had life, may still

2005-02-28 06:10

NOORDWIJK, Netherlands: European Space Agency scientists think that there was and could even still be life on Mars and want another European mission to the red planet to take new samples, a conference heard over the weekend.

"Mars is the most Earth-like planet in our solar system," said Agustin Chicarro, an ESA Mars Express project scientist said at the end of a week-long conference during which scientists from around the world discussed ESA's Mars mission findings so far. There was so much methane produced on Mars that there was reason to believe the gas had organic origins. "Life is probably the only source that can produce so much methane".

They found a large ice sea near Mars' equator that was formed less than 5 million years ago and believe volcanic activity is still continuing on the planet's northern pole. Some, 75 per cent said yes. Asked whether they believed there to be life there now, 25 per cent said they believed there is, and it is most likely in the form of bacteria.

More here: www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-02/28/content_419853.htm

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I am very aware of jumping the gun, looking like a kook, and taking the very outside chance that Mars is devoid of life. No assigned scientist would take such a chance. But as peer acceptance and status depends on mainstream thinking...and FUNDING, it is a dangerous place to be for any academic to be in. I think the present atmosphere of exploration stifles creativity and risk taking, placing them in the ranks of sci-fi, psudoscience and wackos. Too bad.

For me, as an ordinary Amateur Astronomer, lost in the Big City of Chicago, and one of many thousands of other astronomers...I'm ok with it.

[TheCriticalEye]

Again Joeyou are still asuming presumptions.

"Probably" / "Think " / "Believe"
Dude these are all markers that point towards ......... ( drum roll )
There is still ZERO conclusive complete scientific evidence!

Another thing that is intresting is what people actually think the rover/mars express missions are about. If folks remember from the very beginning this sceintific mission was never to go find life on mars. In fact it is a study of mars to understand earth's fate in the solar system.

And like mars or venus we will eventually become. The rest of the scientific findings that may come to fruition from present and future missions will even provide more knowledge of the evolution of our own planet and the solar system.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Well Bill,

Me and a whole bunch of other progressive thinkers are on the same plane, and I can deal with that...some even with advanced degrees!...

But it's cool that you doubt it, as it creates more of an investigative process and examination of the presumption and eventual acceptance. Theories must be attacked and knocked down to see if it will stand on it's own...so I welcome any scrutiny...as we are all reaching for the truth.

Perhaps the Rovers main objective was not to find life, (I think it was), but the Viking missions certainly were. They had an experiment in where soil scooped up was placed in a nutrient rich medium to see what would happen. What was discovered was that an explosion of Carbon Dioxide was released...indicating some organic/chemical reaction occured. They stopped short of annoucing that this was the by-product of life processes, as they felt it was inconclusive. But many do speculate it was a sign of life.

Let's see what next "belief" will be released in the media about yet another discovery on Mars indicating present life.

;D

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Spelunking on Mars: Caves are Hot Spots in Search for Life

The steady grains of evidence continue to pile on...

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Instead of probing for signs of alien life on Mars’ harsh surface, some researchers have suggested looking inside the planet, where there is mounting evidence of water ice near the equator and the potential for underground aquifers that could support basic, microbial organisms.

Spirit and Opportunity, the two robots currently exploring the red planet under NASA’s Mars Exploration Rover (MER) mission, have proved that water shaped the development of rocks on the planet’s surface. Meanwhile, Europe’s Mars Express spacecraft now orbiting the planet is preparing to unfurl a radar instrument that, researchers say, might find pockets of liquid water in subsurface caves or voids.

More here from Space.com: www.space.com/scienceastronomy/scitues_marscaves_050308.html

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Of course, it would be foolish for mainstream authority to proclaim life now, and understandably...but the tide is turning bit by bit.

[Maddad]

Chicago said:

Of course, it would be foolish for mainstream authority to proclaim life now, and understandably...but the tide is turning bit by bit.

Like the tide in Indonesia turned on December 26th.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

NASA Scientist: 'Mars Could be Biologically Alive'

Yet another tidbit in the ever so increasing opinion on present life on Mars...

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BOULDER, Colorado – Evidence for intense local enhancements in methane on Mars has been bolstered by ground-based observations. The methane, as well as water on Mars, was detected using state-of-the-art infrared spectrometers stationed atop Mauna Kea, Hawaii and in Cerro Pachón, Chile.

Many types of microbes here on Earth produce a signature of methane. Indeed, the tiny fraction of atmospheric carbon found as methane on our planet is churned out almost entirely biologically with only a very small contribution from abiotic processes, scientists say.

On Mars, the photochemical lifetime of methane is very short - roughly 300 years. Therefore, any methane now lingering within the martian atmosphere must have been released recently.

The entire story here: www.space.com/scienceastronomy/050419_mars_methane.html

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One day soon, we will receive the news we all been waiting for.