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[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

The bad Element of Amateur Astronomy

An observation to share with you all...

Why is it that most astronomers possess this negative attitude or need to feel superior to others? Many a time I have observed and have personally experienced the smarmy and condescending interaction of these individuals exhibit to the public, and especially amongst themselves.

Sometimes to be polite or genuinely interested in the specs in a scope, I'll approach the yet unknown astronomer to ask questions or share experiences. I'll often either be ignored, talked down to or "dazzled" by their terminology, when all I wanted to know what was the mm of the eyepiece they were using. They will engage in dialog befitting a 3rd grader and attempt to impress by utilizing "big" astronomical terminologies. When I then confidently display cognizance and knowledge of astronomy, they change from an attitude of all-knowing to becoming threatened and upping the ante to discussing some obscure reference to string theory. I often refuse to play along as this oneupmanship game gets tired quick. It clearly displays insecurity and a need to overcompensate.

Heaven forbid if you refer to their precious scope as a 6" if it's an 8"! Or mention an upcoming astronomical event, as they have either seen it before or it is no longer of any interest to them - an activity of novices. Or they attempt to downplay my equipment and of others by boasting of high-tech equipment, palm-pilot interface and expensive Baader filters. Nice toys to have but it doesn't diminish my experience one iota.

I rather enjoy the conversations with the public and learn something from the interaction. Instead of being bothered and annoyed, I am rather pleased of the interest they exhibit and it's quite a kick to show them their first views through a telescope and watch the reaction it provides.

Now, don't get me wrong. I have met pleasant and helpful astronomers in my activities. All too eager to assist in my needs or share willingly of their equipment, experience and time. Many of you are here as members of the Chicago Astronomer or readers of the Newsletter...but that's the exception. The others would just as enjoy throwing my scope into the lake.

Organizations, groups, societies and gatherings are all too infiltrated by these sad individuals. I try my best to avoid them as best I can, as any negativity that I can purge from my life and keep at bay can do only good for me, my friends and associates.

Listen, my advice is to stay the hell home if polite interaction with the public bothers you so much. The childish attitudes impresses no one, but I guess a child can't help what he is.

[starbux]

I can only speculate as to the "why".

Perhaps it is because astronomy is (for the most part) a solitary hobby, it requires only a minimum of interpersonal relationship skills. When I started out as a kid my interpersonal skills sucked, and were long neglected until later (when paradoxically I spent little time involved with astronomy). I'm not saying it must be an either-or type deal, but if you're a loner, getting involved with it can exacerbate the problem. An air of superiority regarding astronomy knowlege and equipment could mask unexpressed feelings of inferiority in other areas of their lives.

Then there is the peer-pressure/crimethink factor where certain subjects are verboten to discuss, or may only be discussed with a clear attitude of ridicule. Such as astrology, the face on Mars, or the Steady-State Theory.

I'd be willing to guess that most of the folks that you refer to are under 35 years of age and that the older folks (for the most part) have a more open attitude when it comes to other people's equipment and experiences.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Starbux...

I thought about what you posted....and must agree with you on all points. I happen to be a "Loner" type myself, but with the shield of astronomy to lean on, I rather enjoy the interaction. In my past, I have been at the head of boards, councils and commissions. If I couldn't practice public relations, I would not have put myself in those positions.

Although I can understand the possible reasoning for the "poor" astronomer's interpersonal skills, I still cannot condone it. There were times where I had to remove an individual from a high profile position in the public eye, in damage control for my organization. I think some of our astronomical organizations might do better to heed this as well.

If I really want a serious observational session... I don't go where the people are. I can have fun alone, and searching the heavens by myself. But it's a given that if I place myself in the publics eye, then I am expected, (from myself), to behave myself in a certain way...and that means greeting everybody with a smile and a handshake. Maybe I'm too harsh, but I expect the same from others who are quasi ambassadors of amateur astronomy.

And you are correct that the bad attitude is mostly a younger pimple popping set. Sometimes I can sense the inexperience, and the false bravado displayed as protection for whatever failings they are dealing with.

You are wise, Starbux, and if you can snatch these pebbles from my hand....you may leave in search of truth...or a larger telescope!

[jitte]

I don't think it's something confined to astronomy, I've noticed the same thing in the Artificial Intelligence community. The same type of discord between people who believe in UFO and the bebunkers exists between people who use bots and those who don't too.

After spending three years countless hours working on bots and maintaining an AI related site, I finally lost all interest due to the conflict it subjected me to.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Jitte,

Yes, this character flaw permeates all levels of social interaction, work, recreation or everyday life. I spent 20+ years active in community service in different mechanisms...School Board, Police Dept etc... It was never the work was a problem, it was the ignorant attitudes and treatment by people I had to associate with. It makes an otherwise enjoyable time...a real drag and tension filled.

In astronomy, academic and scientific circles, perhaps a bit more so.

Hey Jitte, I used to watch "Robowars" on tv every Sunday. Robots battling amongst themselves is quite an enjoyable way to spend an hour.

[starbux]

If you receive Tech-TV on your cable/satellite they run Robot Wars quite often nights. The original British version. American copies are wimpy.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

No, I don't get tech-tv, but I used to watch the British original. My buds and I used to watch and bet on the outcome of King robot. I have never viewed the American version.

I also like the M.I.T robot competition, where both teams have to work with exactly the same parts, but build a machine that would vanquish the opponant.

Fun stuff.

[NatureDevil]

In the guitar world, you come across people like that. To some extent, I get defensive the same way.

First of all, I personally think I suck at guitar, and can play enough to get by. I know so many people that I work with who are better at soloing, or better at chord progression...anything. <ost of them are cool, but some people like to have this attitude that they are not impressed when I play, and then have to pull off some great arpeggio in front of me to try to get me to google at them (which I don't for other reasons).

Yet at the same time, I recently have to deal with my drummer's other band, these high school idiots who really, really suck at what they do. This normally wouldn';t bother me if it wasn;t for the fact that they have the ego-complex where they believe that they are highly skilled and original at what they do, because whenever they do a show, all fo their friends and parents come to the show to cheer them on. Yeah, I could do that too when I was in high schoiol.

They act towards me in a demeaning factor, almost as if I wish I had their talent. Excuse me, I may not be great, but I can read music, and can play 7th chords. About 90% of guitar players out there can't do either of that. There is nothing these guys can do that I can't run cirlces around with my ax. Then I try to appreciate my playign skills a little more. I am not that great, but I do stand out, to a degree.

The lead monkey in the group used to use my expensive amp at practices without telling me, never asked me, never thanked me for letting him use it at a show, and continuously put his damn drink on it after I yelled at him not to. So, I pulled my equipment out of the practice spot, and I refuse to play any more shows with them (so have some other bands because of their attitude).

Their ego will calm down soon enough, For being together for almost 2 years and having only written almost 6 songs, I look at this as more of a treehouse club than a serious band. But when I find sticky residue from some ass-clown's Mountain Dew on my amp, heads are gonna role.

I think most astronomers would get defensive about what they do because it is so obscure and they assume they are the elite in a small club that they have dedicated themselves to. I just recently got my first scope, and have had wonders trying to put it together. But I myself have many hobbies that I like to exploit constantly. My music, my astronomy, my bookreading, my science fiction, my traveling on road trips and exploring what is around me. And I myself have people I know around me who tend to crowd in on what I do, and move into my territories. Suddenly, I find mysefl trying to get them out - it is like hey, you're cramping in on my identity!!! They don't do much themselves, so they start jumping into what I do, and I get defensive about that. Maybe that is what these guys do. I don't know. Alright, I need to get to work......

NatureDevil

[stargazer]

Hey Guys,

As we sit here and discuss "Attitudes" of Astronomers I guess I should voice my opinion. I have seen this problem all to much. Now I have nothing to prove here but I have read and heard of many negative comments of so called Astronomers. As a "card carrying" member of quite a few good org I want to say to those who put them down "SHUT UP" Yes I have some Certs from the AL and am going after more, no I have dont have to go after them but enjoy the hunt and am thrilled to hold that peice of paper that says I completed them. On another web site group the gentelman (and I use that term loosely) put down the Al and the certs. He also claims to do the Messier Marathon in just under 4 hours. (yea with a goto) now lets see him do that without his goto. Now I have nothing against goto's the cannon will be one soon. But to recieve the certs you cant use goto. I have always felt that when it comes to Astronomy it dont matter if your male or female or what scope you have just go out there and have fun. If you know some stuff please share it if not shut the h*** up.

Just my 2 cents

B

[jitte]

I was involved with chatbots that use Natural Language Processing and Case-Based Reasoning to process information.

Several people remarked that it was "creepy" to talk to a machine that sounded so human. It seems like some people felt a need to trip up the bot, or defeat it in some way.

I always thought it was due to a fear of loss of control, that they did it to show they were still superior to the machine.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Well......I must say that I am pleased that I was not alone in my sentiments about the Curmudgeon Astronomers.

All what you have said is true and really...quite sad. But in order to keep my life as peaceful as possible, I try to eliminate the negative as much as I can, this includes sour people. These people are psychic vampires and suck the energy right out of you.

Astronomy is quite the elite club to be part of and a noble activity, but in any whole...there is the crusty and hardened part, which we avoid. We all here have freely shared our thoughts, experiences and knowledge with one another and with complete strangers. It's unfortunate that we will be attacked from time to time, but I do my best to counter and vanquish the threats. I would like to continue to hear about your negative experiences in your hobby, as it allows us to examine what happened and address it properly.

But let's enjoy ourselves here, and other fine forums and ignore the bad and celebrate our great love of Astronomy.

[jitte]

Chicago said:

All what you have said is true and really...quite sad. But in order to keep my life as peaceful as possible, I try to eliminate the negative as much as I can, this includes sour people. These people are psychic vampires and suck the energy right out of you.

Astronomy is quite the elite club to be part of and a noble activity, but in any whole...there is the crusty and hardened part, which we avoid. We all here have freely shared our thoughts, experiences and knowledge with one another and with complete strangers. It's unfortunate that we will be attacked from time to time, but I do my best to counter and vanquish the threats. I would like to continue to hear about your negative experiences in your hobby, as it allows us to examine what happened and address it properly.

But let's enjoy ourselves here, and other fine forums and ignore the bad and celebrate our great love of Astronomy.

Forgive me if I came off as sounding negative, I wouldn't want you to think I was a psychic vampire.

[starbux]

Forgive me if I came off as sounding negative, I wouldn't want you to think I was a psychic vampire.

Well, I don't know about psychic vampires. But have you ever stopped and noticed how most astronomers all come out at night?

Really makes one stop and go HMMMM...

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

You mean sorta like Vampire Astronomers?

Hmmmm?

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

And notice we get all excited during a full moon too.

[stargazer]

I dont know about you guys but I really get excited about a New Moon. I like the sky better. Nice and dark. Even betterwhen you are in pitch black skies where you can reach up and touch the Milky Way. But thats just my humble opinion and my two cents.

B

[NatureDevil]

I remember many times when I am on my wanderous road trips finding incredibly dark skies. The Florida keys had the best nighttime sky, and an even better sunrise off of the highway (we pull over a lot just to look around).

New Mexico along the highway was the best. No moon anywhere. No lights, no cities for over 100 miles in each direction (heading west towards Albuquerque) and no traffic (after midnight). I could not see my own hand in front of my face. I had to feel along the car to find Claire, my girlfriend, near the trunk.

Unbelievable.

First stop, Al's. Week after, Highway 40 in New Mexico.

NatureDevil

[TheCriticalEye]

;DHappy New Year eeryone.
Looks like it has been awhile on this one and the topic died. Let me try to revive it.

To me it isnt the bad additudes. It is the ones that like to use " fringe psuedoscience" into a realm of realistic sceince/ astronomy. Wich to me causes bad additudes. lol

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

I had started to rant in replying to a different post on another board, and figured I would continue...

In addition to my previous opinions, I tire very quickly on the astronomer who makes it known that they have done it all, knows it all. One attempts to carry on a conversation but it's all their show, and whatever you have to add is of no interest to that person. And when they talk to you, their tone of voice is one of great pains, deep sighing breaths of great effort in their activities...as if the weight of the world rests on their shoulders. Oh Pleeze! I used to work in city government with a character like that...and he was just a clerk!

Example, if one states an observation of an astronomical target for the first time, that person will downplay it as all too simple and was located years ago. Or quoting some obscure person/book/place in an attempt to impress or degrade. They are not sharing an experience, but more of boasting and the stuff of braggarts. A sure sign of insecurity and need for empowerment.

Sad people indeed. Astronomy is an area of sharing and celebrating with the experienced, the intermediate and the beginner. I get bad vibes right away from these people and don't need that in my life, and in 2005, I intend to remove the nay sayers and negative people from my life as best I can.

I encourage all of my members here to post their awards, certifications, recognitions and other achievements...as it builds us stronger and smarter. No envy, jealousy or bitterness should be present here, nor is it welcomed. This is a place to escape all that, to celebrate our accomplishments.

I have been fortunate to have been on the receiving end of good media coverage, recognitions and kudos on this site. Some can't deal with it, but they are in the very, very small minority and inconsequential. Those we leave behind and continue our interactions.

I thank you all for making it possible and making The Chicago Astronomer a presence in cyberspace and beyond.

A lot more to come!

[stargazer]

Joe you know how I feel about this. Yes I have gotten a few certs and there is one more that needs to be added here. I am still working on about three others that will be finished come the WSP.

You know I have been picked on about this and I feel like you it is wrong. When we post the awards or news of what we done yes we are NOT bragging just letting people know what we have been able to complete. No some of these certs I am working on are not easy they are time consuming and require alot of scope time or patience. It makes you feel good to hold that piece of paper that says you did it. Yes Joe you have picked on me about wall space for all the certs. To be honest with you in my bedroom right now there really isnt much space left. Maybe for three more certs.
We once talked about doing a board for what we are members of IE: Clubs and the what nots. Well I think you should do it. If they dont like it then they dont belong being a member. Like you say lets share in the rewards we have earned or what we have done. I enjoy sharing what I have done with the members here, I do it so everyone can see that they can do it as well they just need to get out there and do it. It is not bragging nor boasting. One of my recent certs called for spending 2 months looking at the Sun drawing the sunspots. Yes it sounds easy but try to sit there everyday and do it. It means something when you finish it and send off your work. I have gotten dirty looks or have been told I was bragging when people find out I have them or have earned more. Right now I am working on the small certs to get them out of the way as the big ones are hardrer to do and I want to concertrate on them. certs like the Herschel 400 or Hercshel 2 which is another 400. The Planetary one I am working on requires alot of drawing and timings. All I need for that is the Jupiter stuff. I had to plot a Comet and an Asteroid, Locate Mercruy and Neptune, draw Mars, Saturn, yes they are fun to do but very time comsuming.

People should not feel like we are bragging. Maybe they do because they dont have them or the drive to go after them.

Just my rant and rave about this issue. Ill shut up now and go back to my corner. Joe if you want to delete this you wont hurt my feelings. But people need to understand this are things we are proud of and want to share them with everyone.

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

No, I don't delete posts, as all views and opinions are of value regardless of the rant.

I myself am not threatened by others accomplishments or accolades, as I am confident in my own skills and recognize my limitations. Jealousy and envy are such childish emotions, and it shows. What does bother me is the superior attitude and grandiose opinion of themselves they display to others. That is quite disdainful and I can either smash their scope over their heads, or just walk away and ignore them. Being confident and being pompous are two very separate states of being. I prefer confident.

So go ahead Chicago Astronomers...posting your Soapbox box issues, and advancing in your personal astronomical achievements.

It's all good.

[NatureDevil]

It reminds me of the world of being a musician as well. Just recently we played a show with 8 bands total, and 4 were advancing and 4 were eliminated. We didn't get enough votes (we played first before the main throng of people arrived) and were eliminated.

But we played the best I had ever heard us play, and the people in the crowd were amazed. Most bands play one or two styles of music, but we hit about 4 in our 6 song setlist. I do not intend to brag, but to show diversification in our sound.

Because of this, the guy who is running the entire Chicago division of the contest invited us back into the quarterfinals, which I believe are at the Metro. Now I am excited!!!

And you know what? My first show years ago when I played bass on stage (okay, there is no real "stage") at the Sun Cafe on Montrose is unparalleled to most of the things I do today. Kind of like when Jay saw Saturn for the first time at ScopeStock a few months ago.

I could brag and state that I have played everywhere from the Thirsty Whale to the Congress Theater, but there are thousands upon thousands others who have done way better.

If anything, I state those things for two reasons alone: to show credibility (I am not just a garage band hack...entirely) and to show just how much passion I have for what I do.

Not just anyone can get all those certifications in astronomy. Not just anyone can become a telescope interpreter at the Chicago Adler Planetarium. Only a select few people who have the drive to do it can. Hell, I can't do what you guys do, but that is only because I focus more of my energy on my music (if I had more time to dedicate to it, watch out!!!!). Honestly though, music is more passionate to me than astronomy (not much, but significantly enough).

I have seen guys who can take the guitar and shred all down the fretboard and sound awesome. Put them on stage and all their songs sound the same and they look like a statue. Then they have the nerve to act board with my 3 chord jingles. They can kiss my ass, I am the one who gets the cheers and the people moshing in the front row, and that is payback enough.

Those things you guys earn are not what you really want, they just happen to be the paperwork for the real prize.

I fell like Anthony Robbins. Okay, going back to class now. Ciao.

NatureDevil

[stargazer]

Brian you are right. Its not the paper I want, its the knowledge and knowing I did all by myself. Thats what matters to me. Its like you said you can play three cords and get lots of clapping and people killing themselfs in front of you or you can play like Jimi Hendrix and get nothing. Most people dont understand how hard it is to do what I do or even what Joe does, But Hell the rewards are worth it. I will find out all my rewards when I get to Fla next month.( will explain when I get back home)

Brian you CAN do what I do. Yes they are time comsuming but well worth the effert you put into it. Thats the biggest thig that bothers e is that people think what I do is sospecial but all you need to do is be a member of the AL either through a society or a member at large. then you can get them just as easy as I do.

Ok Im off to my corner now and I will shut up.

Becky

[John]

Hello everyone,


This is a long thread. ... lots of good opinions out there about bad attitudes.

I offer one suggestion - hang in there and don't be too quick to avoid these negativos. Your positive attitude might just rub off on them. That could make a difference toward the good for all of us in the astronomy community - especially the next youngster who runs into one of these negativos!

Clear skies,

John

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Hey John,

Always fun to have you post on the Chicago Astronomer.

I have learned to avoid the curmudgeon astronomer, as bad vibes has a habit of rubbing off. Everyone starts off with a clean slate, a firm handshake and a smile. Then it's up to them to define their relationship.

So...

It's up to all of us here at the Chicago Astronomer, Adler Planetarium and other venues to show the kids and interested adults... the fun and love of the night skies, and leave the negativos to their own.

This thread by the way, is one of the longer and most read ones here at the CAF.

Next....Joe on Oprah Winfrey on the dark side of Astronomy...

[stargazer]

Hi guys,

I have learned one thing from all the negative attitudes from people. I just push harder. I have once agin recieved two new certs that are on the wall. I have a new theory about some people. If you dont like that I am doing Astronomy then just leave me alone and keep your opinions to yourself. Cause people I am not going anywhere any time soon.


Becky

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Recent Example of the Negative Astronomer

Recently, I have had a fill of what's been discussed here on this thread regarding poor astronomer attitudes, and I thought I would share with you all.

An associate of mine is into astronomy big, but believes he knows all there is to know in the area, thinks he rubs against the "professionals" and is the ultimate authority. That's fine, as it doesn't impart anything on me, neither impressed nor intimidated am I. It's rather amusing really...but I let it go on for the sake of the frail friendship/acquaintance. I think it stems from insecurity and an attempt to appear important & competent...but is neither. Always something bad to say about everybody not associated with him.

On a personal account...anything I have to say, be it my duties at the Adler, my Chicago Astronomer activities or the website is downplayed and is nothing of any importance or value to this individual. There is ALWAYS something of ill to say about such things, and they way he talks to you, it's like... he has the weight of the world on his shoulders. With a big sigh and condescending tone, he will go on ad nauseum about all the non interesting things at the Adler, or the blinding lights in the city or even downplaying an observation I had. This person is a downer and can't find any good in others. But...he'll go on and on about his new equipment, or his degrees or his school pals at JPL. And relating his own work in the field is like a burden that must be accomplished...talks in a constant sigh. Yadda, Yadda, Yadda.. I hate that!

Now, I still associate with this person for friendship other than astronomy...but, c'mon! I never have received a pat on the back, good job or compliments from this dude in my astronomical endeavors...ever! No acknowledgment from my meet up with Lovell or my TV/media appearances or my website. Not that I was seeking it from him, but I always acknowledge his accomplishments, certificates and degrees. I don't see the media beating down the door to talk with him either...and I think that ambiguity bothers him.

Some people just enjoy it too much at the perceived misfortune of others. There's a German word for this...I forget what the term is called, but it just brings up resentment. All I say is when he goes on and on is "That's nice", and continue to something else.

He doesn't join up with us at our star parties, nor is he invited, 'cause I think we would drag him down...and I really wouldn't want to introduce him to the group...bad karma. He spends most of his astro time in the collar counties with like-attitude astronomers. His wife is no prize either and I detest the superior attitude of his very small ignorant group of four. Staying out of the city only improves urban astronomy for the rest of us.

So, here is a perfect example of the Negative Astronomer Attitude that I work to avoid, and it is shadowing me...too close really.

If any of you reading this post think you suffer from this disgusting and ignorant malady...stop it!...stop it now! You impress no one, and just makes you look like a pompous moron. Thank goodness my members and city astronomer associates are all cool and enjoy each others contribution. I personally think any accomplishments you all make, helps to make astronomy a better passion to share with others.
Unfortunately, I come across the type in my activities too often. Too bad.

There, I vented a bit...And no, my subject won't be reading this, too busy planning for his trip to JPL to complete a degree, got friends there you know...

[Rocketman]

Well a person with an attitude like that isn't worth the worry. He's obviously a prick. What a sad life he must have.

As far as what you've done, I praise you for it. You give me a place to associate with others, and I learn a lot about astronomy because of this forum. You've done well Joe, and you will continue to do well.

I would have already knocked the guy on his can by now

[Chicago Astronomer - Astro Joe]

Grady,

Thanks for the kudos. The internet, (a gift from the gods), enables all with common interests to assemble. I'd be lost without it, and It has allowed me to share my passion. As the Chicago Astronomer continues to grow, more will share the love of the skies, and enjoy each others company....and that's what it's all about.

As for my aquaintance, well...he thinks his behaivor is alright...and as long as it doesn't affect me or my efforts...it's cool. A "That's nice" retort keeps things peaceful... He reminds me of a Seinfeld character. It's in the episode where Kramer goes to Hollywood, and two cops investigate a murder. "Johnny" is one of the cops who talks in disturbed and annoyed sighs, and with such burden. That's pretty close... These people are toxic..stay away from them.

I shall hire Grady as my "Enforcer"...

[Maddad]

Yanno, you really outta pull your hair out of your face before you look through the eyepiece of your telescope.

[martyn2005]

admin said:

Recent Example of the Negative Astronomer

I never have received a pat on the back, good job or compliments from this dude in my astronomical endeavors...ever! No acknowledgment from my meet up with Lovell or my TV/media appearances or my website.

Joe,

If it's any consolation it's not just Astronomy and It's not just the USA! My experience in England is that there will always be people who either just can't resist putting others down or those who just will not be able to say "well done". I am the type who always says thanks and gives credit to others and it is a constant annoyance to me that there are not many others out there like that!

I'm sure that a lot of it has to do with the personal confidence of the individual involved but it costs nothing and is no effort at all to be personable with someone who is making an effort with you.

The world splits into two camps, as far as I'm concerned, the stupid and the intelligent. The difference is nothing to do with certificates or knowledge picked up from books, for me the difference is simply enthusiasm. Intelligent people will always look to learn from others and be in awe of their surroundings, the stupid will always cut themselves off and decry any attempt at interaction.

It's obvious to me which camp you fall into after meeting you at Triton, and having received so much advice already from yourself and others on the forum. So keep up the good work providing excellent resources and information for complete amateurs like myself, and ignore the truly stupid! ;D

Martyn