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[Chicago Astronomer Joe]

NASA Images Suggest Water Still Flows in Brief Spurts on Mars

*I have been on record for quite sometime now, that water presently flows on Mars. My comments are all over this forum with associated NASA images...and now NASA releases the news that it and some of us - has known for many years...

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NASA photographs have revealed bright new deposits seen in two gullies on Mars that suggest water carried sediment through them sometime during the past seven years.

"These observations give the strongest evidence to date that water still flows occasionally on the surface of Mars," said Dr. Michael Meyer, lead scientist for NASA's Mars Exploration Program, Washington.

Liquid water, as opposed to the water ice and water vapor known to exist at Mars, is considered necessary for life. The new findings heighten intrigue about the potential for microbial life on Mars. The Mars Orbiter Camera on NASA's Mars Global Surveyor provided the new evidence. The deposits appear in images it took in 2004 and 2005 but not in a 1999 image of one site or a 2001 image of the other site.

"The shapes of these deposits are what you would expect to see if the material were carried by flowing water," said Dr. Michael Malin of Malin Space Science Systems, San Diego. "They have finger-like branches at the downhill end and are easily diverted around small obstacles." Malin is principal investigator for the camera and lead author of a report about the findings published in the journal Science.

The atmosphere of Mars is so thin and the temperature so cold that liquid water cannot persist at the surface. It would rapidly evaporate or freeze. Researchers propose that water could remain liquid long enough, after breaking out from an underground source, to carry debris downslope before totally freezing. The two fresh deposits are each several hundred meters, or yards, long.

The light tone of the deposits could be from surface frost continuously replenished by ice within the body of the deposit. Another possibility is a salty crust, which would be a sign of water's effects in concentrating the salts. If the deposits had resulted from dry dust slipping down the slope, they would likely be dark, based on the dark tones of dust freshly disturbed by rover tracks, dust devils and fresh craters on Mars.

Mars Global Surveyor has discovered tens of thousands of gullies on slopes inside craters and other depressions on Mars. Most gullies are at latitudes of 30 degrees or higher. Malin and his team first reported the discovery of the gullies in 2000. To look for changes that might indicate present-day flow of water, his camera team repeatedly imaged hundreds of the sites. One pair of images showed a gully that appeared after mid-2002. That site was on a sand dune, and the gully-cutting process was interpreted as a dry flow of sand.

Today’s announcement is the first to reveal newly deposited material apparently carried by fluids after earlier imaging of the same gullies. The two sites are inside craters in the Terra Sirenum and the Centauri Montes regions of southern Mars.

Sources: adsfree01.mail.com/scripts/mail/read.mail?folder=INBOX&order=Newest&mview=a&mstart=1&pbox=2&msg_uid=1165451206&mprev=1165451207&mnext=1165451204

space.newscientist.com/article/dn10740

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It "ain't" no dust or gas flow. Just accept it.

[Chicago Astronomer Joe]

Water flows on Mars, before our very eyes

This 24-metre-wide crater was first spotted in December 2003. It was not present in an earlier image from April 2001 (Image: NASA/JPL/MSSS)

MGS team member Phil Christensen of Arizona State University in Tempe, US, who was not involved in this study, says he is convinced that the gullies were formed by the action of liquid water.

"It says something is actively going on today in at least some of these gullies and one intriguing possibility is that water was released," he told New Scientist.

"I think they make a pretty good case that these aren't simply dust avalanches or some wind-related process," he says. He adds that the sublimating carbon dioxide scenario is even less likely, because temperatures in the regions where the gullies are found – between 30° and 60° from the equator – are too high for the gas to get frozen in the first place.

If the deposits are the result of liquid water flow, the source of the water is not clear. Malin's team suggests it comes from underground aquifers, perhaps kept liquid at low temperatures with the help of high salt concentrations.

Christensen says it could result from the removal of dust from a hypothetical layer of snow, which would then melt when exposed to sunlight.

The new evidence that liquid water may flow on Mars today boosts the chances that life could be present, Christensen says. "I believe that we have found places on Mars where you could take terrestrial life forms that live on snow or in aquifers and put them there and they would survive," he says.

Source: space.newscientist.com/article/dn10740

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There is just too many individual raw images from NASA showing liquid water flowing down hills, in gullies and pooling to deny that it exists today. It should have been annouced years ago, but regardless...it's out now.

Just a matter of time.

[Centaur]

Why all uppercase letters and an exclamation point in the headline for this thread? Does that imply some emotional involvement? Does the news seem to validate earlier conjectures (hopes? wishes?) Is the lack of healthy skepticism good science?

A Reuters article on the subject inserted the following paragraph:

The scientists conceded the images were only circumstantial evidence not proof. They cited a possible alternative explanation that those features were caused by the movement of dry dust down a slope.

Here’s an old SpaceDaily link to an explanation of how carbon dioxide could effect the geology on Mars in manners similar to that of water on Earth:

www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-water-science-01f.html

And here’s a quote from the middle of that article:

It's not liquid carbon dioxide flowing in the gullies. "What's coming out is liquid CO2 that suddenly vaporizes," Musselwhite said. "As it comes out, it expands very quickly, cools, and actually produces CO2 snow. The snow is suspended in CO2 gas that hasn't solidified yet. "Together with rock debris, it forms slurry. Geologists call it a 'suspended flow.' Suspended flow acts like a liquid. It doesn't take very much liquid each time to add to gully formation."

I recall similar hoopla a decade ago when NASA had President Clinton announce that an Antarctic meteorite contained small spheres that were likely fossilized Martian bacteria. That was later debunked.

NASA officials know that much of their funding is dependent on the public believing they are searching for life, or at least water. They tend to make announcements that may be positive to this theme well before sufficient examination has been done. Actually, I'm all for such schemes that cause taxpayers to become willing to pay for the scientific exploration of the solar system. I only object when a significant portion of the funding is diverted to manned missions.

Sorry to have thrown cold water on the water, but some balance was required. ;D

[Chicago Astronomer Joe]

NASA’s mantra “follow the water.”

"Forget about water flowing on ancient Mars — scientists reviewing images from Mars Global Surveyor say it looks like water is flowing there today."

"We are talking about liquid water that is present on Mars right now," says Kenneth Edgett of Malin Space Science Systems in San Diego, California, which built Global Surveyor's main camera. "No one expected what we found today."

"Maybe we no longer have to think about following the water, but watching the water," Edgett says. "You've heard of the smoking gun? Well, [principal investigator] Mike Malin calls this 'the squirting gun.'"

"Certainly something very remarkable goes on at the mid-latitudes of Mars," says Arizona State University's Phil Christensen. "The evidence of liquid water is compelling."

Astronomy Magazine:
www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=4747


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"We’ve had solid evidence for water on Mars for some time."

But these photographs provide compelling evidence (if not absolute proof) of a dynamic near-surface hydrological cycle (i.e., a flow of water that can break out onto the surface).

The search for life on Mars and elsewhere is driven these days by NASA’s mantra “follow the water.” We don’t yet know if life is probable in warm, wet environments, but that’s certainly the first place to look. Now we seem to have seen, for the first time, a flow of water on another world.

Dr. Robert M. Hazen of the Geophysical Laboratory, Carnegie Institution of Washington, Washington, D.C.

Earth and Sky:
www.earthsky.org/blog/50806/nasas-mars-mantra-follow-the-water

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These observations give the strongest evidence to date that water still flows occasionally on the surface of Mars,” said Dr. Michael Meyer, lead scientist for NASA’s Mars Exploration Program.

According to scientists involved in the study, the ghostly-white images possibly depict surface frost or salt deposits covering debris thought to have been moved by water flow. Scientists skeptical of the photographs suggest that the deposits might merely be dry dust tumbling down the slope. But NASA countered that – based on previously observed dust features, such as those from fresh disturbances of the Mars Rover, dust devils, or impact craters – if these features were dust, they would be much darker.

www.earthsky.org/article/50802/liquid-water-emerging-from-Mars

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I'm 90 percent convinced that the escape of subsurface of liquid water is the best explanation of what they are seeing," says Jim Bell (Cornell University) of the Mars rovers imaging team. He notes that the deposits indicate that the material is thin and flows around obstacles, which argues against landslides. The deposits are very bright, suggesting a fluid consisting of water and dissolved salts rather than one consisting primarily of liquid carbon dioxide.

Sky and Telescope Magazine:

skytonight.com/news/4852501.html


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These new images that we see the water in are from the now dead Mars Global Surveyor. The huge 21" camera on the new Mars Recon Orbiter will no doubt reveal much more evidence in the upcoming months.

Yea...I guess the men behind the space machines, the NASA astronomers and prestigious astro mags also jumped to conclusions. How dare they...they are scientists of the highest level! I'll let these over zealous individuals be enthusiastic and emotional for me and others...

Defending and hanging on to old out dated concepts of a cold, dead and dry Mars is quite retro. I don't mind balance, just as long as it includes an open mind.

Better check that cold water...it's most likely Martian... ;D

[Chicago Astronomer Joe]

Majority of Astronomy Magazine Readers believe Water flows on Mars today

Source:
www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx#poll

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Submit your opinion...I wonder what the final tally will be?...