Topic: A beginners learning curve (Read 290 times)
peetyg Chicago Astronomer Apprentice member is offline
Joined: Jun 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 39
A beginners learning curve « Thread Started on Nov 19, 2011, 11:33am »
Looking for help. I have had my C cpc hd 9.25 edge for 6 months. I have enjoyed looking at Saturn, Jupiter, moon (wow factor). I have tried astro recording with my Nikon d5000 dslr of sun and moon. When I look at galaxies,nebula, clusters ect, all I see faint images. What should I be looking for to expand my learning. I have thought of using technologies such as maliincam, hyperstar ect. I feel am stuck in my pursuit of this wonderful hobby. I subscribe to astronomy magazine ect. What is the next step in increasing my learning in visual observations. Next summer will plan to attend star parties ect to learn. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I also would consider paying someone to teach me astro photograpy.
Joined: Jul 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 282 Location: chicago, il
Re: A beginners learning curve « Reply #1 on Nov 19, 2011, 12:46pm »
Hi Peety,
Please explain being "stuck".
Which area do you want to develop: visual or photographic?
For visual, you can challenge yourself -Identify constellations with naked eye by season -Study the ever changing solar system objects by sketching: sunspots, martian surface markings, jovian moon transits, etc -Concentrate on studying a particular group of objects what are your faves? asteroids, galaxies, double stars, dark nebulae, etc... -Try Messier Marathon -Check out "The Night Sky Observer's Guide" by George Kipple, it provides chock full of observation notes on a ton of objects; also Sue French's latest book.
For astrophotography, well the skies the limit... Paulie and Tom might have chimed in on the AP class offered by the CAS group.
With today's advancement in digital tech, anybody with a camera phone can shoot decent lunar shots and jovian moon formation. With a webcam, you can record solar system objects and stack images to bring out detail in lunar landscape, jovian cloud bands and martian ice caps. I have a Nikon SQ point and shoot; I have taken shots of solar prominences, lunar domes and Cassini division. I also own a Nikon D5000 DSLR. I have been able to dabble in astrophotography by shooting at a few bright DSOs like Cigar Galaxy, ET Cluster and Veil Nebula. There is also serious AP, with dedicated mounts and CCD cameras that cost more than the scope itself. For me I pickup tips from Astronomy and S&T magazines. "Digital SLR Astrophotography" by Mike Covington is also a nice book. It sure beats the days I was using film.
Better yet, join Joe and crew for a night of observing and inspiring the public.
Joined: May 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 6,939 Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA, Earth,
Re: A beginners learning curve « Reply #2 on Nov 19, 2011, 1:01pm »
Everything Bill said.
In observational astronomy, it's all about size and how much photons you can gather at the front of the scope. YOur 9.25 scope is a good one, large enough to catch details in larger and brighter objects, but still too small to bring out intricacies of the fainter objects like nebulae and galaxies.
With the C11 I use, it's just starting to resolve clusters into individual stars and the wisps of the Orion Nebula. And I understand that in the 16" at the Conway observatory, the views are quite spectacular.
It's thru astrophotography that brings out the faintest details...even in smaller aperture scopes. As the eye is not sensitive enough to discern faint colors...observational astronomy is mostly shades of grey. A mallincam is a great tool, but very expensive. Wait awhile and develop your celestial navigation skills and master finding objects.
But, just finding these objects with your scope is a wonderful experience, (even better manually). The Moon constantly changes with each night and certain features only visible at certain specified times. Jupiter and Saturn make for great study and even with the smallest scope, you can study the Sun and it's sunspots with ease.
But yes...please elaborate further at being stuck.
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."
peetyg Chicago Astronomer Apprentice member is offline
Joined: Jun 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 39
Re: A beginners learning curve « Reply #3 on Nov 19, 2011, 2:23pm »
Thank you to all of you. I would love to learn AP. I live in the northern subs of chicago. It seems that the AP clases are in indiana, thus doesnt seem practical to drive on regualr basis. I wish the Adler had some type of AP learning program. Thus I would pay for privite instruction.
In terms of Visual viewing. It would be great to have a structured progression of learning. Start with basics planets and move to more diffucult visual observations. With learning different characteristics about what you are looking for. Other basics such as what type of filters should you use and when (LPR vs OIII) ect.
Joined: Jul 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 282 Location: chicago, il
Re: A beginners learning curve « Reply #4 on Nov 19, 2011, 2:43pm »
Peety,
Besides reading info on books and internet, go out and join an astronomy group. There are quite a few groups up north. Don't wait til summer to join an observing and/or imaging group.
Joined: Jul 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 282 Location: chicago, il
Re: A beginners learning curve « Reply #6 on Nov 19, 2011, 3:53pm »
North - Northwest Suburban Astro and Lake County Astro groups. Central - Chicago Astronomers and CAS [Chicago] South - Naperville Astro and Southwest [SWAOG] and CAS [Calumet]
Joined: May 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 1,552 Location: chi.il.us
Re: A beginners learning curve « Reply #8 on Nov 19, 2011, 7:25pm »
Peety, My astronomy frustrations took a huge dive once I got out with other more knowledgable people, both at public CA star parties and in private with others who knew what they were doing. Observing next to another person allows me to share views, discuss topics and gear, and compare and contrast (A/B) objects and scopes. I helps me check my expectations against some sort of objective reality. It has aided me tremendously.
By myself, I frequently felt like I was off in the woods as far as how to use my equipment and mostly by my expectations of it. What we will see with our scopes is very, very different from any photo that we will see. The closest photos I have found to what we may see are the old 1890's photos from the Lick Observatory. Like Joe and Bill said, our eyes can only do so much. We are further hampered by the aperture of our scopes, our biology (pupil size, color perception), the immediate environmental circumstances of surroundings (light pollution), technology (scope alignment, eyepiece quality & cleanliness), as well as the atmospheric and meteorologic phenomena of any given moment (temperature, cloudiness, seeing, and transparency). In addition, those things can change from moment to moment. I've had bad seeing interrupted by moments of good seeing over the course of ten or fifteen minutes.
It is my experience that nothing looks the same for me from night to night. Except for the aperture of my scope, I think any one, or maybe even all, of the above will be different the next time I set up my scope. By observing objects over time, studying a single object over the course of many minutes or hours, and then doing so again over many subsequent viewing sessions, we can begin to tease out variations that are not obvious to a casual viewer or even to us if we do not spend the time. I have been amazed at the differences I have seen in The Ring Nebula, The Dumbbell Nebula, Andromeda, and all of the planets. A big part of my excitement is the suspense over what I will finally see tonight once I am finished wrestling my scope into alignment. (Even that has become a fun game. How close can I get it tonight? The delight of having it slew and drop a faint DSO to the same spot of my high power eyepiece over and over during the course of a viewing session has become a huge point of personal pride that nobody else will ever see, know about, or appreciate.)
I am amazed at the differences I have seen in objects just from viewing at my house, at Horner Park, at Adler, and at a darker sky location. Each place offers a unique opportunity to find subtle differences that I alone will perceive based upon my past viewing experiences. My appreciation not only grows for the dark sky locations but simultaneously for what we all are able to actually pull down from the sky and share here in this most light polluted of all cities. I am constantly as fascinated and amazed as the unprepared public who view through our scopes, and delighted when they are moved by what we are able to show them.
I use SkySafari and Evernote to keep a log of what I see, when I see it, and what my perception was. I also set a goal to find at least one new object during every observing session. I have not always been successful, but it's fun to do.
So my advice is the same as Joe and Bill. Get out with another astronomer, even one just a tiny bit more experienced than yourself. It looks like we are in for some clear weather this weekend, so I'd be happy to have you join me here at Sunken Gardens Park or Horner and we can just hang out, compare scopes, compare views, and talk basic astronomy (cuz that's all I can talk). And/or maybe Joe will round up the gang for a public session. I think meeting up with some fellow travelers at an astro club meeting is another great way to meet a tolerant soul who lives closer to you, maybe a way to find somebody to help you with specifics of visual and A/P.
I know that most pros use b+w cams and drop the color in later when they do their stacking. I can't tell you how, except that this is what I've read. As I felt that I had so much to learn about visual astronomy, I've purposely kept A/P off of my radar for the last two years. I'm a bit obsessive about stuff, so I didn't want to open that box until I had a very comfortable visual base from which to work. I wanted to be adept at both using my scope and at knowing what I was looking at. While I still feel like I have a way to go on both of those, I have opened the door a tiny, teeny crack for A/P, but I'm so far keeping it at bay.
If you want more help, head over to cloudynights to the beginner A/P forum and do some reading there before you start asking. Much knowledge is already contained and many questions already answered.
Like you, I did hit a rut, and that rut was begun to be surmounted at my first CA star party. Your booster may be different, but there is a lot of help out there if you'll take the time, energy, and summon the fortitude to go find it and ask a thousand questions. Hope this helps and answers your question. What you stated is a bit vague, but I think I may know where you're coming from. Let us know.
Mostly, don't give up! The world is littered with nice telescopes sitting in closets. Your scope is too nice, and the Universe too amazing, to have yours meet a similar fate.
Joined: May 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 1,552 Location: chi.il.us
A beginners learning curve « Reply #10 on Nov 21, 2011, 9:17am via the ProBoards Mobile App »
Peety, Thanks.
This is from Tanveer over on the C14 EdgeHD Yahoo forum:
To: C14_EdgeHD@yahoogroups.com From: tanveerg@gmail.com Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:40:23 -0800 Subject: Re: [C14_EdgeHD] EdgeHD 14 Image of Jupiter on 11-05
The first decision you have to make is mono or color. Mono gives you a little bit better resolution but you need to buy quality interference filters, which don't come cheap, and a filter wheel. Jupiter's rotating incredibly fast. For the level of detail that can be captured in a 14" scope, you probably need to finish your imaging in a minute to avoid "smearing". If this weren't enough, for perfect images, you need to refocus each of the colors slightly. All this takes away from your imaging time.
A motorized filter wheel makes your life easier and a motorized focuser might also help. I have neither, just to be clear and manage to turn out decent images but a color webcam has the advantage that it can capture full color images in a brief window of good seeing. With a mono webcam, you need such a window for at least the red and green channels to get good detail.
Personally, I would recommend the color webcam if you're getting started at planetary imaging (this also minimizes cost) but note that you may still need an IR/UV cut filter.
The second decision you have to make, typically with cameras like the DMK, is Firewire vs. USB. My preference is USB as Firewire seems to be disappearing from laptops. USB 2.0 is speedy enough that no frames are dropped.
The third decision you have to make is about the chip size. With a 3916 mm f.l. for the 14", Jupiter's image is going to be about 0.94 mm across on the CCD. The CCD itself typically has 5.6micron pixels and is 480x640 across, which is about 2.7x3.5mm imaging dimensions-wise. Taking the smaller of the dimensions, you can use upto a 2.8x barlow, i.e. go to 9000mm f.l (f/31) before Jupiter won't fit in the chip. You could go to a bigger sized chip but you will suffer a loss in frame rates. The smaller sized chip can go to 30fps comfortably but the bigger ones are generally limited to 15fps (at least for the DMKs). If you live in an area where mediocre seeing is typical, you want the higher frame rate.
Of course, the fun begins after the capture when you'll find yourself obsessing over the processing of the data to eke out the minutest details. There's a lot of great software available here: I've used Registax, AviStack, IRIS, WinJupOS to name a few, without which the webcam planetary imaging revolution would never have happened.
Good luck!
Tanveer
You math with a 9.25 will obviously be different, but thought his recommendation of the color cam was interesting.
There's a new Celestron cam made to be grab and go. Perhaps a good place to start? Dunno. Starts getting expensive quickly. p
-=CROMAN=- Tenured Chicago Astronomer member is offline
Joined: Jan 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 626 Location: South Elgin
Re: A beginners learning curve « Reply #13 on Nov 22, 2011, 11:44am »
When I look at galaxies,nebula, clusters ect, all I see faint images. What should I be looking for to expand my learning. I have thought of using technologies such as maliincam, hyperstar ect. I feel am stuck in my pursuit of this wonderful hobby.
I guess it all depends on what your expectations are. I remember the first time I saw Andromeda with my Dob, at first I didn't think I found it because it was just a blob of light. lol
In fact the first ever DSO i viewed was in Patrick's 9.25 at the adler. He showed me the Hercules cluster and I was like..... "where is it?" Of course I failed to look correctly into his monster axiom EP , it was down to the left and i was looking in the center of it. (newb)
I was frustrated in the beginning because there is so much to learn and being an immediate gratification type of person doesn't help.
What really sparked my interest was installing my manual degree circles on the base of my dob. With that system in place I was able to find nearly everything I attempted to locate in the night sky. It kept my nose in the books and my fingers on the keyboard, just what I needed to open my mind up to whats up. Finding a cool globular cluster makes my night! I love the hunt.
I think if i started out with a smaller aperture GOTO scope within my then budget ($400.00) I wouldn't have learned as much as I know now. For me I need to challenge myself with everything that I do. Perhaps you are not challenged enough yet?
Everyone has a button that needs to be pushed. If astrophotography is your button then I say go for it!
Why wait for the summer? The skies during the winter are awesome.... Where in the NW burbs are you located? Perhaps you , myself, Robb and Erik can get together for an evening of DSO hunting? Robb is pretty good with his SCT and DSLR combo. You can learn some tricks from him!
Hopefully I'll have my new C8 project completed in a week or so. I was hoping for someone to help me learn how to use the byers worm gear drive and wedge for simple astrophotography. Let me know if you are interested.
« Last Edit: Nov 22, 2011, 11:44am by -=CROMAN=- »
peetyg Chicago Astronomer Apprentice member is offline
Joined: Jun 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 39
Re: A beginners learning curve « Reply #14 on Nov 24, 2011, 9:34am »
i would love the offer. My biggest issue is time because of work. This is a very busy time for me till end of the year. would you guys be willing to meet in january? I have never done any winter time observation let alone AP. I live in deefield.
Joined: May 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 6,939 Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA, Earth,
Re: A beginners learning curve « Reply #15 on Nov 25, 2011, 7:15am »
Peetyg,
Sure...but one one of those "warmer" January nights.
No more zero degree observation sessions for this astronomer.
I start to come out of astronomical hibernation in early March...but the 2012 Public Star Party season will be the busiest ever for the Chicago Astronomer.
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